What's your fourth street play?

[BeerMoney]

Well, this was interesting.. I hit my $$ card, and wasn't sure where I was at. 3rd street criticisms welcome as well..

7 Card Stud High (5/10), ante 0.5.

3rd Street

Seat 1: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif__calls
Hero: A/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif__calls
Seat 3: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/club.gif__calls
Seat 4: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif__folds
Seat 5: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/club.gif__folds
Seat 6: xx xx T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif__calls
Seat 7: xx xx J/images/graemlins/club.gif__calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/club.gif__bring-ins (2)

4th Street

Seat 1: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif__double raises__calls
Hero: A/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif__calls__?????
Seat 3: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif__folds
Seat 6: xx xx T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif__folds
Seat 7: xx xx J/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif__bets__raises
Seat 8: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif__calls__folds

[timmer]

wow it depends.

my first though was fold.

Although nothing was provided on the texture of the opponents so this might be way wrong

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
wow it depends.

my first though was fold.

Although nothing was provided on the texture of the opponents so this might be way wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

Timmer, I believe it was one of my first hands at the table, and was not familiar with the opponents.

[Andy B]

With a Nine and a Deuce out it's hard to put <font color="red">9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif </font> on trips so I figure him for a flush draw. The open Jacks are a little scary, but he didn't raise on third street. Of course, not everyone raises with Jacks, and I usually won't after a lot of limpers, because I don't really want to play a big pot with split Jacks. (In this particular case, I probably do raise with those Jacks because of the cards that are out.) I think it's OK to call the two bets on the first pass. When the Jacks three-bet, it looks like he has trips after all, but the pot is too big to fold.

[Nick_Foxx]

You can't fold this hand, because there has been no indication that the J up started off with split Jacks... he didn't complete on 3rd street even though he had the highest card showing... and i really don't see a lot of people slow-playing split Jacks at any level.

I would put him on Jacks up at best with like a pair of sevens or something in the hole. Maybe Jacks with 2 paints in the hole.

What you need to do is cap it and, most importantly, make sure you catch the case trey on 7th street.

Mike

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't fold this hand, because there has been no indication that the J up started off with split Jacks... he didn't complete on 3rd street even though he had the highest card showing... and i really don't see a lot of people slow-playing split Jacks at any level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I will sometimes.. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see someone do this after a bunch of limpers either, as Andy said.

[ QUOTE ]

I would put him on Jacks up at best with like a pair of sevens or something in the hole. Maybe Jacks with 2 paints in the hole.


[/ QUOTE ]

At best? Even after the three-bet on 4th after I cold called $15?

[ QUOTE ]

What you need to do is cap it and, most importantly, make sure you catch the case trey on 7th street.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's the only way I can actually outplay my opponents!!

[ QUOTE ]

Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it Mike or Nick?

[Nick_Foxx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You can't fold this hand, because there has been no indication that the J up started off with split Jacks... he didn't complete on 3rd street even though he had the highest card showing... and i really don't see a lot of people slow-playing split Jacks at any level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I will sometimes.. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see someone do this after a bunch of limpers either, as Andy said.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I don't think you or Andy are a good representation of the typical player you would see on Party/Empire. I sometimes see split Jacks make it 2 bets on 3rd st. after an overcard to a Jack has completed.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

I would put him on Jacks up at best with like a pair of sevens or something in the hole. Maybe Jacks with 2 paints in the hole.


[/ QUOTE ]

At best? Even after the three-bet on 4th after I cold called $15?


[/ QUOTE ]

You're probably right on this one. But as long as you follow my instructions (catching the case trey on 7th), you will still come out alright.
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

What you need to do is cap it and, most importantly, make sure you catch the case trey on 7th street.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's the only way I can actually outplay my opponents!!

[ QUOTE ]

Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it Mike or Nick?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well my real name is Mike, but Nick_Foxx is my poker name /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MRBAA]

The J didn't raise on third even though it was the high card showing. I think you are most likely to be against two pair and a flush draw, although trip jacks, rolled nines, trip 2s are all possible. I call and plan on seeing the river.

[Michael Emery]

Sounds like the making of a big pot here, hope you won it. I'm putting 92 on a flush draw as (22)29 is mathematically less probable. The 2A off is no concern to you. The open jacks three betting fourth is a concern as it leaves you as a 3-1 dog to him if he has the higher set. /images/graemlins/frown.gif But as you know the pot is too big to fold. Its cya at the river time. I hope you filled and bad beat trip jacks.

Mike Emery

[timmer]

[ QUOTE ]
wow it depends.

my first though was fold.

Although nothing was provided on the texture of the opponents so this might be way wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

well since your on the end here and the pot is getting sizable I think a fold is likely incorrect. as far as defining your hand or keeping it secret I think keeping it secret is a better play over all. your Ace is sightly injured.

so if raising will very likely define your hand then calling would be the action to take. although I dont really like the call action I think it is better than either other actions.

How the J's will play his range of hands is another logistical variable as to whether to raise or complete the action with a call. since you dont know I would guess "call" and see how 5th street shapes up. I feel this is OK because you will likely be in last position throughtout unless you fillerup with somthing other than the ace.

getting somthing on your opposition is way better than getting nothing on them. This is why my poker coach directs his students to sit out an orbit and watch the action before getting involved in a hand. This can actually work in you favor as well because they know nothing about your play after the fact other than you like to wait an orbit before getting involved.

timmer

[timmer]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't fold this hand, because there has been no indication that the J up started off with split Jacks... he didn't complete on 3rd street even though he had the highest card showing... and i really don't see a lot of people slow-playing split Jacks at any level.

I would put him on Jacks up at best with like a pair of sevens or something in the hole. Maybe Jacks with 2 paints in the hole.

What you need to do is cap it and, most importantly, make sure you catch the case trey on 7th street.

Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike would you raise split Jacks (if you had them) into a field like this one?

I sure wouldnt. I would call and see what came off on 4th.

timmer

[BeerMoney]

I folded. Is this bad?

Here is a 2 dimes out put. I didn't figure in the other cards that were out.. But, If I can figure the jacks for trip jacks, and the other guy for hearts.. Under these worst case conditions, here's the simulation:

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qh 9h 3h 2h 98567 19.71 401432 80.29 1 0.00 0.197
Js Jc 4c Jd 291791 58.36 208209 41.64 0 0.00 0.584
3s Ac 3c 3d 109641 21.93 390358 78.07 1 0.00 0.219

[Michael Emery]

[ QUOTE ]
I folded. Is this bad?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I am interested who the player was with the open Jacks though. PM me with his screen name Beer. Overall, I do think its a terrible fold in the Party 5-10 to be honest. With the money you have invested on fourth here already you must continue. Only if you know with a 100% certainty its trip jacks (which as you know in party's 5-10 is impossible) could you maybe get away from your hand. i.e maybe a three-bet from someone as tight as ming who is smart enough to realize your cold calling must mean you most likely have trips too. Other than that there's no way I could force myself to fold. Tell your wife to give you back your balls man. Its hard not to play weak-tight, as you did here, without them. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Mike Emery

[Nick_Foxx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You can't fold this hand, because there has been no indication that the J up started off with split Jacks... he didn't complete on 3rd street even though he had the highest card showing... and i really don't see a lot of people slow-playing split Jacks at any level.

I would put him on Jacks up at best with like a pair of sevens or something in the hole. Maybe Jacks with 2 paints in the hole.

What you need to do is cap it and, most importantly, make sure you catch the case trey on 7th street.

Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike would you raise split Jacks (if you had them) into a field like this one?

I sure wouldnt. I would call and see what came off on 4th.

timmer

[/ QUOTE ]

i definitely would at least consider it if no one has completed in front of me. i figure to have the best hand at the moment (which is not always a case for raising but here i think a good argument can be made)

[grb137]

I am of the 7CSFAP school of thought: if you are unsure, FOLD. Many people, erroneously in my opinion, advocate "if you are unsure, call with your strong hand to find out." I like my money and I am a control freak, so I muck this hand and what for a better opportunity.

I'll save whoever's time by posting the standard counterargument (which I disagree with): "yeah, but this is a loose game, and 7CSFAP wouldn't apply since its geared towards a stronger, higher limit game, not a loose 3/6 game like this"

[Michael Davis]

If you are unsure, folding in a large pot is a significant error. If you really have no idea how to even go about estimating your chances of being good in a certain situation (this happens), then you should fold in a small pot and call in bigger ones, as if you, a good player, really doesn't know what's going on, there's enough of a chance you're ahead to justify a call.

If you fold every time you're unsure you're not going to have any money left next week.

Please tell me where 7CSFAP advocates a policy of folding if uncertain. There's a good reason people say you should call with strong hands.

-Michael

[grb137]

clarification: if you are unsure *against a paired door card.* There's an entire section discussing this concept. to quote:

"if you have any doubt about what you should do when your opponent pairs his door card on 4th street, you should fold."

the book gives four specific exceptions to this general rule, none of which are met in this situation:
1) the player is a "wild, loose player" who plays almost any 3
2) the player was the bring in
3) you are "very sure he has a big pair in the whole"

4) you doubt the trips AND you have two bigger pair that could fill and beat a potential boat by your opponent.

Granted the situation at issue seems to be better than #4 (since trips is better than 2 pr) but I would argue that the *principle* of #4 still advises against a call in this situation...that is, if you were to fill you would *still* be worried about a higher boat.

You've got a low set against a possible higher set AND a probably 4flush whom you know by his raise will likely be drawing to the end. Not worth the risk in my opinion, and my bankroll has been stable for over a year now. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Michael Davis]

Does the example in 7CSFAP have you holding trips or a pair? My guess is a pair, and a smaller pot.

-Michael

[grb137]

you asked me to identify a particular passage in 7CSFAP, and you don't even have the book?

[Michael Davis]

Why are you concluding I don't have the book? How did you get that from any of my posts. And yes, I'm asking you to identify the particular passage, because it should be obvious that a book for "advanced players" would not recommend folding trips if you are "unsure." If that's the case, then my copy will go into the fireplace immediately, and I'll regret ever having owned it.

-Michael

[grb137]

There's an entire section (from which I directly quoted) that discusses the wisdom of folding against a paired door card in the early rounds when your are "in doubt."

You followed my post with a question about whether or not the "example" has you holding a pair or trips. Since you did not know, I naturally assumed you didn't own the book. I mean, why would you take the time to post this question if the answer is right there on your bookshelf?

See the section titled "Playing against the paired door card (in early rounds)"

[Michael Davis]

I just read the section. It's never really clear what you're holding, but I think assuming you have trips is a mistake, and what they're mostly talking about is one pair hands.

The section is somewhat unclear. For example, consider these two lines: (1) "You can also sometimes play if you doubt that you are against trips and you have two bigger pair..." and (2) "Again, if you have any doubt about what you should do when your opponent pairs his door card, you should fold."

SMZ are being vague here by both not identifying what exactly you are holding (they do not specifically give an example of folding trips) and being vague about what constitutes doubt. Also, in the penultimate paragraph, they make explicit that "one big pair should usually be thrown away (on fourth and fifth streets)." This is included to demonstrate that the situation of folding one big pair is different from other spots, like folding trips. If BeerMoney is holding a pocket pair of aces, for whatever reason, he has an easy fold.

Note also that in the questions and answers sections of the book, the answer to when else it might be correct to play against a paired doorcard: "You also sometimes can play if you doubt that you are up against trips and you have two bigger pair than your opponent's...so if he does have trips and fills up, your full house will always beat him."

That when you are holding trips isn't given mention here, even though it's an obvious spot where you would sometimes continue to play, indicates to me that logically, we shouldn't really be considering folding trips very often, period. Otherwise it would be mentioned as a hand that we should sometimes continue.

-Michael

[BeerMoney]

SEAT1 balance $272, lost $67.5 [ Ah 8h 9h 2h Js 5h As ] [ a flush, ace high -- Ah,9h,8h,5h,2h ]

seat7 balance $163, bet $67.5, collected $163, net +$95.5 [ Jd 8s Jc Jh 8d 2d Qc ] [ a full house, Jacks full of eights -- Jd,Jc,Jh,8s,8d ]


I guess that even if he did have the trips, I'm not a huge dog, so it seems I probably shouldn' have folded given the money already in the pot. This is the first time I've ever folded something like this, and it was nearly impossible to do. I'm not of the big fold nature, but his raise just screamed trips, and I didn't feel like paying him off for more bets.

[Steve565]

Great post, it brought out a lot of good ideas from this board. Damn, you guys are good!

Nice call. Myself, I think I get killed in this hand - how does this guy not raise with jacks versus no overcards and no one completing?