Post Flop Play for dummies - HELP

[Scuba Chuck]

I get this "learning to play postflop" might get expensive for me. At least it's fun to learn something new...

How should I have bet this different? And, did you see this hand coming? (Damn Hand Converter takes me to a different site now)

***** Hand History for Game 1712277124 *****
30/60 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 10251724) - Wed Mar 09 22:31:17 EST 2005
Table Table 11039 (Real Money) -- Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: BarnGoddess (1480)
Seat 2: mikeyrats (730)
Seat 4: Scuba_Chuk (560)
Seat 5: jkim01 (1750)
Seat 7: SixDegree6 (690)
Seat 8: shuntley (390)
Seat 9: DblRndOfCrwn (1475)
Seat 10: CakeLove (925)
mikeyrats posts small blind (15)
Scuba_Chuk posts big blind (30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuk [ J /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
jkim01 calls (30)
SixDegree6 folds.
shuntley folds.
DblRndOfCrwn calls (30)
CakeLove folds.
BarnGoddess folds.
mikeyrats folds.
Scuba_Chuk checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, J /images/graemlins/club.gif, 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif ]
<font color="blue"> Pot is only 105 here. Okay, I'm out of position. I have TPWK, with a bunch of limpers. What am I to be thinking about right here? I thought that if I check, I will be giving a free card if it checks through. But, I'm really not all that interested in tangling with a KJ. What SHOULD my bet have been? Or rather, what is the better move? </font>

Scuba_Chuk bets (30)
jkim01 calls (30)
DblRndOfCrwn calls (30)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
<font color="blue"> Pot t195. More blasting please. (Oh, and Thank you, may I have another.) </font>

Scuba_Chuk bets (60)
jkim01 calls (60)

<font color="blue"> What are your thoughts on jkim01 right now? A call to me, means one of three things:
1) He also has a jack
2) He is slow playing a set
3) He's an idiot
</font>
DblRndOfCrwn folds.

** Dealing River ** : [ 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
<font color="blue"> I am completely up the creek without a paddle right now. I am so lost. I still have top pair???? This good pusher and folder, is thinking I've lost this hand. "Will I check fold, or check call? Well if it's not too painful, I'll call and post on 2+2." </font>
Scuba_Chuk checks.
jkim01 bets (100)
Scuba_Chuk calls (100)
** Summary **
Main Pot: 515
Board: [ 2s Jc 7d 3s 7s ]

Results:
<font color="white"> Scuba_Chuk balance 340, lost 220 [ Jh 9s ] [ two pairs, jacks and sevens -- Jh,Jc,9s,7d,7s ]
jkim01 balance 2045, bet 220, collected 515, net +295 [ 8s As ] [ a flush, ace high -- As,8s,7s,3s,2s ]

This is what I hate about the results (besides the fact that I really didn't think this is what the guy had.) That going into the river, I'm ahead. But I couldn't tell.
</font>

......

[Mammux]

Your flop bet is too small, 60 should be good. With no draws, you'll have to respect any caller. Notice that jkim played this semi-decently. You didn't represent a jack on the flop, so he had two overcards and a runner-runner flush draw. Your flop bet gave him better than 1:4 odds and probably good implied odds. Your turn bet is 1:4 again and his flush draw is looking very good, with great implied odds because it's well disguised.

-Magnus

[gumpzilla]

How do you bet when you have a hand that you're confident about, assuming that you somehow actually get to a flop? Is this minbetting something you don't usually do, I assume? Minbetting the flop is not a move I'm particularly fond of here. It's cheap enough for your opponents to call with a wide range of hands, so you don't get to figure out where you are. Plus, many opponents (I tend to fall into this category) frequently read such weak flop bets (unless there are reads to indicate otherwise) as a very low confidence attempt to pick up the pot. Such people can pop you back with essentially no hand here because it looks so likely that you're itching to fold.

I like a somewhat larger flop bet, maybe 70-75 or so. If you pick up a caller, check the turn and see what happens from there. Many times you're going to get a free river following that. Check-calling the river then seems reasonable; try to induce bets from hands that you're beating, because anything worse than your hand doesn't seem likely to call a river bet of any size.

[jg22]

Im still a newbie at this (I play the 20s on Party usually) but my thoughts are to bet more on the flop, maybe 50 or 60. The guy made a bad call on the flop bet for sure, he might have laid it down for a larger bet.

My experiences in the 20s is that usually sets and better kickers on the jack would raise after the flop, so it would be an easy lay-down at that point. I would say that a caller would be more likely to have a 7 or some sort of middle pocket pair and think its good. Generally, Id say about 75% of the time (at least in the 20s) top pair would be ahead on the flop in that situation with just limpers.

Id bet half the pot again on the turn, but if this guy called half the pot on the flop hoping to catch runner runner for a flush, he'll call just about anything on the turn since he caught his first spade.

[zaphod]

I am also lost on these hands. I like best to check and fold on the flop. My other option is bet 75 on the flop and then slow down(check-fold.) My thinking is i really don't want to loose a lot of chips on top pair weak kicker early in the tournament. But it i guess i miss a lots of opportunities for easy chips early in the tournament.

[Phil Van Sexton]

The min-bet was pointless. They have big stacks and will likely call 30 with anything.

You have a small stack, so your options are limited. I'd probably check and let them bet with worse hands. If they check behind, I'm coming out firing on the turn for 100.

Alternatively, I also might bet 100-125 on the flop and try to take the pot immediately. I don't want to bet small, then have them call and have no clue and a big pot.

[ReDeYES88]

[ QUOTE ]
. . .but if this guy called half the pot on the flop hoping to catch runner runner for a flush, he'll call just about anything on the turn since he caught his first spade.

[/ QUOTE ]

. . methinks it was his Ace that resulted in the flop call, not the possibility of runner-runner flush.

[rickr]

Tell you what I've been doing recently with good success. Check raise that flop. If you end up giving a free card, dump it if it's bad. The check raise really let's you know where you stand.

Later,
Rick

[unfrgvn]

Leading into a pot with the min bet is waste of money in most cases. About 90% of the time it's a scared bet, about 10% of the time it's a monster trying to build a pot.
I agree with the other posters, lead into the pot with T75 bet and you will find out where you stand. Most reasonable players with only one over card will fold to that bet. You're playing limit poker. From two dimes:
pokenum -h jh 9s - as 8s -- 2s jc 7d
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 2s Jc 7d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
9s Jh 826 83.43 164 16.57 0 0.00 0.834
As 8s 164 16.57 826 83.43 0 0.00 0.166

The $30 bet is actually giving him the odds he needs to continue, provided he knows he won't be re-raised by the player behind him.

The turn certainly wouldn't have scared me. What would have worried me was getting a $75 bet called, if I had made one. Having made a $30 dollar bet and not getting raised, I think you have to take another shot. $60 is still light, maybe bet half the pot here. If I'm called here then I'm pretty sure I'm beat and would either check/fold or check call the river, depending on whom I'm playing, how big the river bet is, etc.

[ReDeYES88]

How should I play this differently?

***** Hand History for Game 1712277124 *****
30/60 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 10251724) - Wed Mar 09 22:31:17 EST 2005
Table Table 11039 (Real Money) -- Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: Button (1480)
Seat 2: SB (730)
Seat 4: Villan (560)
Seat 5: Hero (1750)
Seat 7: UTG+1 (690)
Seat 8: MP (390)
Seat 9: CO+1 (1475)
Seat 10: CO (925)
mikeyrats posts small blind (15)
Scuba_Chuk posts big blind (30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif , A/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
Hero calls (30)
UTG+1 folds.
MP folds.
CO+1 calls (30)
CO folds.
Button folds.
SB folds.
Villan checks.
Flop: (t105) [ 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif , J/images/graemlins/club.gif , 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ]
Villan bets (30)
Hero calls (30)
CO+1 calls (30)
Turn: (t195) [ 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
Villan bets (60)
Hero calls (60)
CO+1 folds.
River: (t315) [ 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
Villan checks.
Hero bets (100)
Villan calls (100)
** Summary **
Main Pot: 515
Board: [ 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]

Results:
<font color="white"> Villan balance 340, lost 220 [ Jh 9s ] [ two pairs, jacks and sevens -- Jh,Jc,9s,7d,7s ]
Hero balance 2045, bet 220, collected 515, net +295 [ 8s As ] [ a flush, ace high -- As,8s,7s,3s,2s ]</font>

[raptor517]

you should fold preflop. thats how.

as for scubachuck, i like firing 75 at the pot. if i get action at that point i will probably not waste any more chips on the hand. if you are having trouble with post flop play, mess around with the NL cash games. .5-1 100 max should be a decent training ground. in the last week ive been playing the 2-4 400 max 6 tabling it and amde around 6k. the best part is that it has GREATLY improved my post flop play, which will come in very handy when i decide to start dominating sngs again. lead out for more than a min bet next time and you should be fine, should definitely get fools with no pair and backdoor to fold. /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
How should I play this differently?

[/ QUOTE ]

Push on the turn.

[raptor517]

pushing the turn is terrible..

[rickr]

Your very early in the tourney. You have a good stack. 2 choices that I will rotate. Fold preflop if the table is aggressive. Call and see the flop if it's passive. On that flop I'm gone to a nickel bet. The pot is just too small and your chips just too important right now. If you limp, you want a really solid hit so you can take control of the hand. If you don't get it your just chasing. And I don't noramlly plan on runner runner flush.

Later,
Rick

[raptor517]

ok, first off, he cant fold preflop because he is in the BB. second off, he should never limp if he were not in the BB because J9o is a terrible hand. 3rd and finally, he should definitely lead at this flop. there are only 3 people involved and they all limped. the pot is NOT too small to take a stab at with top pair with no draws out there. holla

[ReDeYES88]

[ QUOTE ]
Your very early in the tourney. You have a good stack. 2 choices that I will rotate. Fold preflop if the table is aggressive. Call and see the flop if it's passive. On that flop I'm gone to a nickel bet. The pot is just too small and your chips just too important right now. If you limp, you want a really solid hit so you can take control of the hand. If you don't get it your just chasing. And I don't noramlly plan on runner runner flush.

Later,
Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious what Scuba thinks about my play. ..do you see why? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
pushing the turn is terrible..

[/ QUOTE ]

Ooops, I thought the 3rd player had already folded. My bad. Anyway, I definately raise the turn.

[kspade]

raptor, youu are getting confused as to which hand is being discussed. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[rickr]

[ QUOTE ]
ok, first off, he cant fold preflop because he is in the BB. second off, he should never limp if he were not in the BB because J9o is a terrible hand. 3rd and finally, he should definitely lead at this flop. there are only 3 people involved and they all limped. the pot is NOT too small to take a stab at with top pair with no draws out there. holla

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, I think were talking about the op hand. Seems like we agree on the hand posted later. I'll explain why I don't like betting this one. You bet and get falt called where are you? You bet and get raised where are you? Lost. A small bet is useless, as we saw here. We both agree on that. But let's say we check. If it's checked around, we get the free card too. But, what happens more often is the guy in last position will through out one of these weak bet's like op did. If he bets 30, you reraise to 100. Any further action really let's you know where you stand. Very few second pairs, top pair weak kickers, or draws are staying. If they come back over, you can safely lay it down, and you have not risked much more than betting 75 or so on the flop, while adding tons of folding equity. It screams of a set or 2 pair when you do this. Now, If you check and there's a huge bet, you can dump it without wasting a dime. You got to see the flop for free, dump it. To me you would eliminate alot of these calling down with medeoicre hands by employing the check raise more often when you are out of position.


Later,
Rick

[raptor517]

check raising is a fine line, but how is check raising to 100 and getting called any different than betting 75 and getting called? if you check raise, you have to make it at least 120 to make it legit, and that is likely wasting too many chips. i like a 75 stab, and if i get called i slow WAY down. holla

[rickr]

Check raising scares the crap out of people. That's how it's differant. If they call your check raise, then you have two choices. If you like the turn card, push. They have to have one heck of a hand to call, and if they had that strong of hand, they would have reraised on the flop. You get alot of 2nd pair, top pair weak kicker, and draws out with the check raise that will call your flop bet. If that's too radical, then a 1/2 to 3/4 pot bet will again take the pot alot of the times, and if he comes over the top, you can get away from it. Try it with no cards sometime and see if you don't start to agree. What you want is one of those hands where you are in the BB or SB. Got to see the flop for next to or nothing. Button limped as well. Checks to the button who bets minimum. You see it all the time. Everyone folds. Now instead of folding reraise 3 times whatever button bet. Watch how often they'll drop the hand. They were just taking a stab at stealing it. Alot of the time thay will call it, only to drop it to a decent bet on a blank turn, which I believe makes this a profitable play. More so than throwing your chips in the dark.

Later,
Rick

[adanthar]

This is the classic bet the flop/fold to a raise hand. Betting about 75 says 'I have a jack' and should be more than enough to get everything else, except for something like TT-88 (maybe) out of the hand. If you get called, shut down except for possibly calling a *small* turn/river bet. If you get called and an ace hits at any point you can relatively safely check/fold at low Party games.

Checkraising is wrong because by the time you CR you'll have put half your stack in the pot. It may scare them into folding a better kicker, but this is Party and you don't *really* want to play for all your chips right now.

Villain (Hand 2) should have folded PF and folded again on the flop (this second one, especially, is not close; that is how you bleed chips with marginal hands) but hey, he got paid off when he hit.

[rickr]

Bet you 10 bucks that if LP had bet 30, which is a I have 2 cards and you guys don't want that little pot, and BB checkraised to 100, at least 5 out of 10 times you'll take the pot right there, and at least 2 more times you'll take it on a blank turn with a half to 3/4 pot bet. I wouldn't check raise half my stack. That would be a waste.

Have to agree to disagree.

Later,
Rick

[Elem100]

I'm a bit of a newbie here but whats wrong with betting something like 120 on the flop? Find out where you are, no messing, nobody is playing unless they have you beat, and limping hands 10J, QJ might even fold.

If you bet 80 and get a caller, both check turn, then you've probably going to call most rivers, so its costing you more that way anyway?

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
You have a small stack, so your options are limited. I'd probably check and let them bet with worse hands. If they check behind, I'm coming out firing on the turn for 100.


[/ QUOTE ]

I assume this advice only applies if the turn card is not an overcard. So specifically to this hand.

Back to the preflop action. With limpers, do you think it's fair to assume that MOST of the time what you can expect the hands to be are Ax, two broadway cards, small pairs, or suited connectors, and sometimes one gape suited connectors?

[ QUOTE ]
Alternatively, I also might bet 100-125 on the flop and try to take the pot immediately.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
as for scubachuck, i like firing 75 at the pot

[/ QUOTE ]

How much difference is there between these two bets, especially from early position? (Before smartass's says 25-50 chips), I mean from the point of view of the villain? I guess it would make sense to bet more if there's a flush draw, but with the monochrome board, less should do it. Is that thinking correct?

[ QUOTE ]
he should definitely lead at this flop. there are only 3 people involved and they all limped.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that was a big decision factor for me here. How does adding 1, 2, 3... etc. change your decision to bet the flop here?

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
How much difference is there between these two bets, especially from early position? (Before smartass's says 25-50 chips), I mean from the point of view of the villain?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are planning to shut it down completely if called, you might as well put in an extra 25 to give them the maximum incentive to fold right now.

If you are willing to put more money in on the turn/river if called, you should bet 75 and keep the pot smaller.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are planning to shut it down completely if called, you might as well put in an extra 25 to give them the maximum incentive to fold right now.

If you are willing to put more money in on the turn/river if called, you should bet 75 and keep the pot smaller.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, good thought.

[microbet]

I think you probably have the best hand on the flop but can't be sure. You are vulnerable to A-Q so don't give them a free/cheap card. Bet about 2/3 pot. You just read Harrington. Isn't that what he would say?

[Hood]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a bit of a newbie here but whats wrong with betting something like 120 on the flop? Find out where you are, no messing, nobody is playing unless they have you beat, and limping hands 10J, QJ might even fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a larger bet is in order when there's a straight or flush draw on to ensure you don't give them the odds to call here. However on this raggedy board, a bet of 80 is enough so that:

- Those with overcards don't hang about, which you don't want with such a vulnerable hand.
- You're not committing yourself if someone with a better hand comes over the top of you.
- Those with TP worse kicker might call and hold on.

[Pokerscott]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm curious what Scuba thinks about my play. ..do you see why? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Bunch of comments on both hands by people...Anyone notice some striking similarities between the two hands? lol.

They are the same hand from different perspectives /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Well played...

Pokerscott

[The Yugoslavian]

Ugh, Scuba, what's with this min-betting bullsh*t??

I dislike the way you played every street, except preflop.

Preflop:
I like your check. I hope you did it with authority.

Flop:
Well, there are two ways you can handle this. The pot is small (t105) but it'd be nice to take it down since you will have the best hand here most of the time. So, you can bet at the pot to take it now (I like ~2/3 of the pot...for the reasons Adanthar described as I'm liable to call an extra 30 chip monkey bet or two later) or you can check. You're likely to see a min-bet from these chumps anyway if you really want t30 more in the pot.

Please note that I *hate* your reverse implied odds. While there is a decent chance your opponents have some sort of connectors, I think it's more likely they have broadways and thus you have to fold to any overcard when there is subsequent action. IMO, that's why you need to take this pot down now, or just not bother with it at all.

YOU CANNOT BET 30 HERE LIKE A MONKEY! 30 chips is just a big, bright banana to these guys....at least if you check and see a bet you've let your opponent define his hand more clearly for you.

Turn:
Okay, you were 'rewarded' for your horrible min-bet on the flop and a safish card came (likely giving your opponents at best a flush draw now). You have no reason to believe you're behind here and the pot is a decent size (t195). Your 60 chip bet is essentially ANOTHER FREAKIN' MIN-BET! You're either beat here, can get more value from these dorks, or are letting opponents see a river card very cheaply (so they can hit their overcard, or flush (less likely)). I, again, would bet 2/3 of the pot to take this down now. Or I would check, let someone *else* bet 60 chips, and then perhaps call that with the intention of calling safe river cards (or more likely just fold it and kick myself for my monkey bet on the flop).

River:
Well, this is good news and bad news. That middle pair that's been calling you down has tripped out or that overcard flush draw has flushed the river. But I think this isn't too likely. I think what is *more* likely is that your oppoent still has the same friggin hand he had on the flop. So, you have quite a bit of showdown value with your hand still and should want to see one cheaply (t315 pot). Well, so far your opponent hasn't given you any reason to think he's not going to just call another weak, fishy bet so I might put in another one just for the hell of it. Or you can check and call down just like you did (as now you probably should call give the size of the pot and weak bet from your opponent). I like betting ~t75 for value and folding to a raise.

I assume your opponent flushed you on the river and had some sort of over (ace most likely, perhaps a king).

Or, if he tripped you, then again, you should/could have been pricing him more heavily (or taken down the pot already) if he indeed had either of these types of hands.

I only assume you lost this hand b/c...well, let's face it, your tone suggests it *heavily*.

Yugoslav
Who admittedly sucks at post-flop play. Flame away if need be....

[ReDeYES88]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'm curious what Scuba thinks about my play. ..do you see why? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Bunch of comments on both hands by people...Anyone notice some striking similarities between the two hands? lol.

They are the same hand from different perspectives /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Well played...

Pokerscott

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif . . i'll have to go through later and compile the contradictory advice. .

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh, Scuba, what's with this min-betting bullsh*t??

I dislike the way you played every street, except preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come one, you're smart enough to figure out what I am doing here.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ugh, Scuba, what's with this min-betting bullsh*t??

I dislike the way you played every street, except preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come one, you're smart enough to figure out what I am doing here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hemorraging chips?

Yugoslav
FWIW I think Redeyes played the hand worse...

[ReDeYES88]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ugh, Scuba, what's with this min-betting bullsh*t??

I dislike the way you played every street, except preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come one, you're smart enough to figure out what I am doing here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hemorraging chips?

Yugoslav
FWIW I think Redeyes played the hand worse...

[/ QUOTE ]

.. LOL. . .yeah .. if only i had actually played it. . /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ugh, Scuba, what's with this min-betting bullsh*t??

I dislike the way you played every street, except preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come one, you're smart enough to figure out what I am doing here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hemorraging chips?

Yugoslav
FWIW I think Redeyes played the hand worse...

[/ QUOTE ]

.. LOL. . .yeah .. if only i had actually played it. . /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. Yeah, I figured you might have just set it up ..... either way a great post by you and poor read by me, /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

So okay. How about this. I think jkim or whoever played it worse than Scuba, /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Yugoslav

[swarm]

"That's how it's differant. If they call your check raise, then you have two choices. If you like the turn card, push. They have to have one heck of a hand to call, and if they had that strong of hand, they would have reraised on the flop. You get alot of 2nd pair, top pair weak kicker, and draws out with the check raise that will call your flop bet."

Not necessarily true, on the rare chances I had AJs on the button I in fact would probably lead out small, smooth call your check-raise and wait for you to bluff again.

This is where I hate medicore BB hands in unraised pots that hit the flop. Your damned if you do damned if you don't but what I have learned is always lead out strong by betting the pot in these cases because you will spend far less chips by either winning the pot right there or having the villans hand defined than if you small bet it all the way.

If you get called tread carefully, worst case scenario in my opinion. i'd rather be raised and fold than have to make another decision on the turn with a bigger pot. It's hard sometimes to make that bet but as yugo said a min-bet on the flop is worthless and I would have re-raised on the button holding any 2...

[ReDeYES88]

[ QUOTE ]

So okay. How about this. I think jkim or whoever played it worse than Scuba, /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, but he had the starting stack to do it and got priced in along the way [that still doesn't make it right]

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh, Scuba, what's with this min-betting bullsh*t??

I dislike the way you played every street, except preflop.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Come one, you're smart enough to figure out what I am doing here.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Hemorraging chips?


[/ QUOTE ]

Creating posts that get monster responses:
Does anyone think my play is a leak here? 87 replies
Hand Quiz. 62 replies
Bubble Pickle. 52 replies
Postflop Play for dummies. 38 replies (so far)

BTW, creating posts that get monster responses is -EV short term, but hopefully +EV long term.

[ReDeYES88]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, creating posts that get monster responses is -EV short term, but hopefully +EV long term.

[/ QUOTE ]

...I think your stats need an asterisk. Half of the responses are Yugo simply quoting others to pad his post stats. . /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[RobGW]

[ QUOTE ]
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 2 , J , 7 ]
Pot is only 105 here. Okay, I'm out of position. I have TPWK, with a bunch of limpers. What am I to be thinking about right here? I thought that if I check, I will be giving a free card if it checks through. But, I'm really not all that interested in tangling with a KJ. What SHOULD my bet have been? Or rather, what is the better move?


[/ QUOTE ]

In cases like this I usually think about how many opponents I have. The more out there, the more likely I am beat. What type of flop is it? The more possible draws available the more likely you are going to get called or drawn out on even if you have the best hand now. Also, the size of your top pair is a big factor. The lower your TP is the more free cards can bite you. Then there is the fact that you are already short stacked. Given all this I would throw out a pot sized bet and try to take this down right on the flop.

[The Yugoslavian]

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[ QUOTE ]
Ugh, Scuba, what's with this min-betting bullsh*t??

I dislike the way you played every street, except preflop.


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Come one, you're smart enough to figure out what I am doing here.


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Hemorraging chips?


[/ QUOTE ]

Creating posts that get monster responses:
Does anyone think my play is a leak here? 87 replies
Hand Quiz. 62 replies
Bubble Pickle. 52 replies
Postflop Play for dummies. 38 replies (so far)

BTW, creating posts that get monster responses is -EV short term, but hopefully +EV long term.

[/ QUOTE ]

So......at what point does this have anything to do with playing the hand correctly?

(Not that *I* know how to play it correctly...)

Yugoslav
PS I am happy that you are very popular on the forum...

[nova]

Scuba - I would agree with the folks above that are for a larger bet on the flop. Seeing that it's an unraised pot, and bam here come's a jack, you'd be representing a jack (also depends on what happened on earlier hands, if anyone has a read on you or not).

If you are looking to try to win the pot, I'd say a pot-sized bet on the flop and see if you have any callers. With no apparent draw out there, if you get called you may be looking at pocket 2's or 7's, for a set.

If you want to play it cautious, you could check the flop and see if they bet the weaker hands. If it went like that, there's a chance it could have been checked all the way out and the flush being bet once it hit, then you could dump the jacks.

personnaly I would have checked it on the flop: last thing you need to do is lose money in an unraised pot to a small set or 2 pair (or letting someone draw a flush)

[morgan180]

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[ QUOTE ]

So okay. How about this. I think jkim or whoever played it worse than Scuba, /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Yugoslav

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Yep, but he had the starting stack to do it and got priced in along the way [that still doesn't make it right]

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, in HoHE harrington talks about how an inital bad play can turn in to correct play based on the odds you get moving forward. His stack and odds seemed to make his drawing acceptable not horrible.

My advice to scuba: PRICE HIM OUT!

[joeboe2001]

I agree with Nova, but I wanted to ask you this--what difference do you see between no-bet (check) and a minimum bet? Your villain was UTG and called, so you should be expecting him to have a fair starting hand--like maybe the KJ you were worrying about. When you get stuck in the middle like this--i.e. your jacks were too good to fold, but not good enough to take charge--you have to either see it out as cheaply as you can or semi-bluff your opponent into oblivion!

[raptor517]

believe me, im no rookie to post flop play, and im also not disagreeing with you about the effectiveness of a check raise. that being said, both methods offer their uses. im merely presenting the opposite end, as i so often like to create arguments and controversy /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla

[villafan]

I have a quite similar hand here:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t765)
MP2 (t1810)
CO (t580)
Button (t745)
SB (t1405)
Hero (t1730)
UTG (t965)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls t50, MP2 calls t50, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (t175) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t50</font>, MP1 calls t50, MP2 folds.

Turn: (t275) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets t50</font>, Hero calls t50.

River: (t375) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets t50</font>, Hero calls t50.

Final Pot: t475


My reasoning is that I dont like to commit a lot of chips into the pot out of position with a weak kicker, but i should probably have bet a bit more (100-125). But instead of making a "real bet" on the flop, i bet just 1/3 of the pot and decide to check call or check fold depending of my opponents bet size. I have found out that i often can induce semibluffs from players with lower pocket pair or with some piece of the board.