Lost too much with KK?

[jdp]

Could I have played this better to lose less money?

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button ($1786)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($915)</font>
BB ($845.87)
UTG ($1369.5)
UTG+1 ($1383)
<font color="#C00000">UTG+2 ($990)</font>
MP1 ($997)
MP2 ($1589)
MP3 ($1557.5)
CO ($3375.75)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. Hero posts a blind of $5.
UTG calls $10, UTG+1 calls $10, UTG+2 calls $10, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero (poster) raises to $50</font>, BB calls $45, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $45, UTG+2 calls $45.

Flop: ($230) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $125</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls $125.

Turn: ($480) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $400</font>, UTG+2 calls $400.

River: ($1280) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero calls $335 (All-In), UTG+2 calls $335.

Final Pot: $1950

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Kh Kc (two pair, kings and twos).
UTG+2 has 7d 7h (full house, sevens full of twos).
Outcome: UTG+2 wins $1950. </font>

[gomberg]

looks good to me, you almost always have the best hand on that flop, and if you think he'll call those bets with an overpair, keep on value betting. Unlucky...

[soah]

What is he calling $400 with which you can beat?

[jdp]

Medium pair maybe? Are you saying you would check the turn, or maybe bet a small amount, perhaps $200, and fold to a large raise?
btw as I recall, he had a VP$IP of about 20.

[soah]

A limper with a VP$IP of 20 is not calling that turn bet with a pair.

Personally, I would have raised full pot preflop and bet a bit stronger on the flop. If I get called on that type of board then I'm clearly either way ahead or way behind. From that point on it gets trickier, but if you continue to blast away at the pot your opponent will have to be completely clueless to make a mistake against you. They get their money in if they can beat your big pair, and fold if they can't.

[ggbman]

What were you going to do, put him on 77? By the time the money goes in on the turn you are definitly pot committed. Nothing you can do about that... it just sucks.

[greywolf]

i think if hes capable of calling the flop bet with 77 when he doesnt have the implied odds for a twoouter and you aren't bluffing with two overs here(multiwaypot), then hes also capable of callling off his whole stack with JJ-QQ or lower.
Having said that i _might_ bet a little smaller on the turn trying to make sure he is calling with smaller PP.

If he raises allin on the turn showing great strength i am giving him credit for a big hand and i might let the kings go. if he smoothcalls i am valuebetting the river for sure. Its not like i am looking for reasons to fold on this board with KK

[soah]

There's a big difference between calling a fairly weak flop bet in position with one pair and calling off your entire stack with that pair. You are allowed to do the former without being committed to the latter, and many players take advantage of that if they aren't sure where they are at in the hand.

[Yeti]

You need to make it more preflop and then pot the flop.

After that it basically has played itself out. Unlucky.

[Cornell Fiji]

Looks good.



-Steve

[Usagi_yo]

Well, Since I don't know what you lost too, either a duece, pocket 55's or Pocket 77's, 64c, but probably not pocket 66s. Means you either didn't raise pre-flop enough or bet enough on the flop.

Edit: Okay, lost to 77. My chicken [censored] poker style tells me the pot is big enough on the flop to try and take it with a pot size bet.

[jdp]

Thanks guys! /images/graemlins/smile.gif
I tend to agree I should have bet more on the flop, probably about 75% or so; probably my biggest mistake
was the big turn bet which committed me to the pot - I guess around 200 might would have been a lot better.

[gomberg]

If you think he'll call, then bet more on the flop. If not, your bet was fine. He made a mistake chasing a 2-outer and got there. I don't think he made 22*125 off you for implied odds /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Whoever said what will he call $400 w/ on the turn that you will beat, I can think of any pair that many players would. Preflop numbers don't mean much postflop...

[stigmata]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think he made 22*125 off you for implied odds /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont play NL (trying to pick it up a little from reading around here), so I could be utterly wrong.

However, I figure that villain was thinking Hero had AK or something, and was trying to pick up the pot. Maybe villain was thinking that he might have the best hand on the flop, and was calling hero's bluff. He then backed into trips, the lucky little [censored] /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Ray Zee]

you are the sixth person to have put money in this pot and you raise it 40 bucks. you just got lucky you werent against a deuce and you had the best hand for one turn.
you want to play your hands so you can read your opponents, not give a handfull of people 20 to 1 odds for beating kings with a surprise hand.

[gomberg]

after rereading the hand, I didn't realize this wasn't heads-up after the flop - disregard all my previous posts in this thread. Being multiway - tread carefully postflop on that board.

[likewallmvp]

I don't play at these limits, but in the $2-5 game I play in, I frequently see people limping with AA-QQ in EP. So if you plan to raise PF to 80-100 and EP comes over the top do you plan on calling out of position or reraising?

I suppose that is very read dependent but a higher raise certainly allows you to play this hand much easier as you are likely to be heads up and with a better idea of your opponent(s) holdings. It also has a better shot of preventing a limp-&gt;callfest.

[jdp]

Not the 6th Ray - the 4th. Also it's pot-limit - I think the max I could have raised was $10 more. I'm not sure where you get the 20 to 1 odds number from - are you looking at a different post?

[Rocaix]

[ QUOTE ]
Not the 6th Ray - the 4th. Also it's pot-limit - I think the max I could have raised was $10 more. I'm not sure where you get the 20 to 1 odds number from - are you looking at a different post?

[/ QUOTE ]

He meant 20 to 1 implied odds on your stack.

[LuvDemNutz]

[ QUOTE ]
Not the 6th Ray - the 4th. Also it's pot-limit - I think the max I could have raised was $10 more. I'm not sure where you get the 20 to 1 odds number from - are you looking at a different post?

[/ QUOTE ]

You raised $50 so your opponents had to pay an additional $45 in the hopes that they could flop a set and take your stack ($915).

So 915 : 45 ~ 20: 1

[jdp]

Well that would be assuming I'm usually going to pay off my full stack with no improvement. I did on this occasion, but I'll normally fold to a big raise and certainly to a solid opponent.

[telltale]

Your pre-flop raise was a little small next time try 120ish. For two reasons. #1 your out of position the whole hand. #2 The first person calling your raise receives one 1.4-1 pot odds. The bigger raise should drive out suited connectors and small-mid pairs. By betting so little you caused a cascading calling affect, which resembled an unraised pot. If one player calls then each proceeding players pot odds sweaten. UTG+2 received over 4-1 on his pre-flop call. When he called your turn bet warning bells should have gone off in your head. Checking the river would have been a better play.

[jdp]

Like I said - pot-limit, I think the max raise was about $10 more than I made it. Interesting point though - if it was NL, what would people recommend to raise here preflop?
The objective I assume is to get everyone to fold with an occasional caller hoping to get lucky.

[Ray Zee]

sorry jdp you could only make it 65. that wouldnt have made a difference in this hand but with the blinds it might.
plus there was 6 in already with you. the blinds are part of the hand. isnt one of the reasons to raise, is to not let the blinds in cheap to beat you with hands you have no idea what they are.
you did get a bad break, and it would turn out the same possibly unless you bet the pot on the flop. but you cant play looking back and in the future you need to think about that 20 to 1.

[soah]

Wouldn't the max preflop be 60? Five players in the pot for 10, so he can raise it 50 more. And the converter likes to screw up sb raises... he actually raised to 55 and not 50, despite what it says. I didn't catch that at first. So he raised to 55 when 60 was the max. Looks like a good reason to play NL instead of PL. =/