over-aggressive?

[asofel]

I've been working on my SNG's recently and have been increasing my aggression with good but statistically insignificant results. Here's an example hand from a $50 I played last night. The rest of the table was fairly weak/tight with lots of calls but hardly ever a raise. My table image is fairly TAG with the last 4-5 hands taken down without showing down.
Will this kind of aggression pay off like it seems to be, or am I developing a bad habit?


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Hero (t2625)
BB (t2775)
UTG (t695)
MP (t1400)
Button (t2505)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls t100, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t300) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t300</font>, BB folds, MP calls t300.

Turn: (t900) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t500</font>, MP calls t500.

River: (t1900) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t500</font>, MP folds.

Final Pot: t2400

[iMsoLucky0]

Alot of people will advocate folding preflop here, but you have enough chips to take a flop with the suited ace.

As far as later streets, I think your bets are fine, but the real question is this: What would you do if you got raise? Would you let it go?

I think obviously after seeing how the hand played out the villian had a big diamond, but if he raises I think you have to give him respect.

I personally think that you got involved in this pot too early in the SNG. I like to wait until the blinds mean something significant (either to my stack or my opponents) before I start mixing it up. But again, as big as your stack is here, completing is fine, and betting is fine. That is just some advice for future reference.

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
Alot of people will advocate folding preflop here, but you have enough chips to take a flop with the suited ace.

As far as later streets, I think your bets are fine, but the real question is this: What would you do if you got raise? Would you let it go?

I think obviously after seeing how the hand played out the villian had a big diamond, but if he raises I think you have to give him respect.

I personally think that you got involved in this pot too early in the SNG. I like to wait until the blinds mean something significant (either to my stack or my opponents) before I start mixing it up. But again, as big as your stack is here, completing is fine, and betting is fine. That is just some advice for future reference.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought about folding pre-flop. I'm still not sure if that's correct and close, correct and not even close, or if its ok to complete with my stack size. I usually lean towards completing and playing when the tables as weak/tight as it was, but I'd be interested in hearing others suggestions.

I think a good timed raise and I would have had to let it go. But, given that I hadn't seen the villain or pretty much anyone else raise if bet into strongly I didn't expect it.

Thanks for the thoughts...looking at it, I don't like it now, regardless of results.

[whynot?]

hey lucky - i love your vid clip - its priceless

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been working on my SNG's recently and have been increasing my aggression with good but statistically insignificant results. Here's an example hand from a $50 I played last night. The rest of the table was fairly weak/tight with lots of calls but hardly ever a raise. My table image is fairly TAG with the last 4-5 hands taken down without showing down.
Will this kind of aggression pay off like it seems to be, or am I developing a bad habit?


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Hero (t2625)
BB (t2775)
UTG (t695)
MP (t1400)
Button (t2505)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls t100, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t300) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t300</font>, BB folds, MP calls t300.

Turn: (t900) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t500</font>, MP calls t500.

River: (t1900) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t500</font>, MP folds.

Final Pot: t2400

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, I agree with previous poster. he had Kdx and was calling w/ terrible odds. The question on this post is, "what should Villain have done on flop?" push or fold...calling is terrible.

But he did call, so you had to be thinking "Im gonna get cr'd on the turn here" well you didnt...guess it was a weak table.

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, I agree with previous poster. he had Kdx and was calling w/ terrible odds. The question on this post is, "what should Villain have done on flop?" push or fold...calling is terrible.

But he did call, so you had to be thinking "Im gonna get cr'd on the turn here" well you didnt...guess it was a weak table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah the call worried me. If he had pushed on the flop, I would have let it go. I do think this is one of those instances where table/player reads are important. They really were that soft...The $50's in general seem almost softer these days, late at night.

[BigHobo]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, I agree with previous poster. he had Kdx and was calling w/ terrible odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was clearly on a diamond draw but I doubt he had the K. With two Aces on the board I doubt villain would fold 2nd pair on the river after putting nearly his entire stack into the pot.

Regarding the original post, I like the complete pre-flop and like the pot-size bet on the flop. Most of the time that will take it down. However, once the flop is called I don't put another dime into the pot. A called flop is either going to be an Ace (with a higher kicker) or a flush draw. In either case, the medium size bets by Hero on the turn and river don't make sense to me.

Fortunately for Hero, the Villain's play was horrid and he got what he deserved.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yeah, I agree with previous poster. he had Kdx and was calling w/ terrible odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was clearly on a diamond draw but I doubt he had the K. With two Aces on the board I doubt villain would fold 2nd pair on the river after putting nearly his entire stack into the pot.

Regarding the original post, I like the complete pre-flop and like the pot-size bet on the flop. Most of the time that will take it down. However, once the flop is called I don't put another dime into the pot. A called flop is either going to be an Ace (with a higher kicker) or a flush draw. In either case, the medium size bets by Hero on the turn and river don't make sense to me.

Fortunately for Hero, the Villain's play was horrid and he got what he deserved.

[/ QUOTE ]

good call...didnt see the K on turn...regardless, k or not is moot. I get cold called like that, Im thinking he flopped the flush. u shouldve slowed down.

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
good call...didnt see the K on turn...regardless, k or not is moot. I get cold called like that, Im thinking he flopped the flush. u shouldve slowed down.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, i think that's probably the correct play. I have noticed though a lot of calling of probe bets on the flop, only to have the villain fold to another good bet on the turn. So far its helped me more than hurt me, but i think that's more to do with the quality of opponents rather than good poker strategy. I have to admit, I know i've made some logically bad plays recently, but they work out as my opponents are so weak. I think this is probably developing into a bad habit...

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
good call...didnt see the K on turn...regardless, k or not is moot. I get cold called like that, Im thinking he flopped the flush. u shouldve slowed down.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm...im surprised this was a 55. Youll almost never see this type of play from good opponents...reminds me of 10+1 type play...a 4 flush does funny things to a fish.

p

yeah, i think that's probably the correct play. I have noticed though a lot of calling of probe bets on the flop, only to have the villain fold to another good bet on the turn. So far its helped me more than hurt me, but i think that's more to do with the quality of opponents rather than good poker strategy. I have to admit, I know i've made some logically bad plays recently, but they work out as my opponents are so weak. I think this is probably developing into a bad habit...

[/ QUOTE ]

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
Alot of people will advocate folding preflop here, but you have enough chips to take a flop with the suited ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't imagine someone on this forum advocating folding pre-flop in this situation... maybe I haven't been paying attention.

[Scuba Chuck]

From the turn on, I think the play by both of you is atrocious. How much sense does it make for either of you to play this hand? You're Big stack 1 and Big stack 2. I prefer to take on the big stack when I'm ITM, not 2 away.

[ QUOTE ]
I can't imagine someone on this forum advocating folding pre-flop in this situation... maybe I haven't been paying attention.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's look at this hand another way. Don't consider your cards here. Ask yourself this question. "What are the reasons that I should fold this hand?"
1) BB is the big stack
2) BB has position
3) I don't want to tangle with Big Stack too often, is this when I want to do it?
4) I don't want to risk too many chips here with a marginal hand.
5) UTG looks a little desperate, and I can probably f.uck with him on the next hand.
6) MP looks even juicier than UTG. I could definately f.uck with him in two hands.
7) Oh, wait, I'm only playing for 150 chips, big deal.
8) OK, I'll play this hand if I have top 20% of cards.


"OOOOhhh, Ax soooted." I'm in.

I'm not saying that folding here is right or wrong. What I am saying is that this is the kind of hand that is meaningless to you if you gain a couple extra chips, but is a game changer if played poorly. If I were coaching you, and I read that you folded this hand in an HH, I would have commented here that I felt you went through a logical thought process and concluded there were smarter plays ahead, and that you were willing to be patient and wait for those opportunities (and that I don't think folding is a leak). I think there is a term for that. Tight.

[RobGW]

[ QUOTE ]
I have noticed though a lot of calling of probe bets on the flop, only to have the villain fold to another good bet on the turn. So far its helped me more than hurt me, but i think that's more to do with the quality of opponents rather than good poker strategy. I have to admit, I know i've made some logically bad plays recently, but they work out as my opponents are so weak. I think this is probably developing into a bad habit...

[/ QUOTE ]
Here is the deal. Adapting to your opponents is a key to winning poker. When you find you have weak players who cold call raises pre flop but fold to further aggression you've found a gold mine. Good poker strategy changes based on your opponents. Whats illogical for one opponent may be perfectly logical to another.

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
From the turn on, I think the play by both of you is atrocious. How much sense does it make for either of you to play this hand? You're Big stack 1 and Big stack 2. I prefer to take on the big stack when I'm ITM, not 2 away.

[ QUOTE ]
I can't imagine someone on this forum advocating folding pre-flop in this situation... maybe I haven't been paying attention.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's look at this hand another way. Don't consider your cards here. Ask yourself this question. "What are the reasons that I should fold this hand?"
1) BB is the big stack
2) BB has position
3) I don't want to tangle with Big Stack too often, is this when I want to do it?
4) I don't want to risk too many chips here with a marginal hand.
5) UTG looks a little desperate, and I can probably f.uck with him on the next hand.
6) MP looks even juicier than UTG. I could definately f.uck with him in two hands.
7) Oh, wait, I'm only playing for 150 chips, big deal.
8) OK, I'll play this hand if I have top 20% of cards.


"OOOOhhh, Ax soooted." I'm in.

I'm not saying that folding here is right or wrong. What I am saying is that this is the kind of hand that is meaningless to you if you gain a couple extra chips, but is a game changer if played poorly. If I were coaching you, and I read that you folded this hand in an HH, I would have commented here that I felt you went through a logical thought process and concluded there were smarter plays ahead, and that you were willing to be patient and wait for those opportunities (and that I don't think folding is a leak). I think there is a term for that. Tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

well said. thanks.

[flafishy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have noticed though a lot of calling of probe bets on the flop, only to have the villain fold to another good bet on the turn. So far its helped me more than hurt me, but i think that's more to do with the quality of opponents rather than good poker strategy. I have to admit, I know i've made some logically bad plays recently, but they work out as my opponents are so weak. I think this is probably developing into a bad habit...

[/ QUOTE ]
Here is the deal. Adapting to your opponents is a key to winning poker. When you find you have weak players who cold call raises pre flop but fold to further aggression you've found a gold mine. Good poker strategy changes based on your opponents. Whats illogical for one opponent may be perfectly logical to another.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Good, solid poker shouldn't be defined by a standard set of tactical maneuvers. It should be defined by how well you adapt to the game at hand. If you can dominate a particular table by making quote bad poker plays end quote, then you would be a good player by doing so.

On the surface, your play of this hand might not have been the best in the world and the argument could be made that you were asking for trouble by playing it this way. But the bottom line is that you do what you need to do based on your read of your opponent. If you're fairly confident that this is the kind of play that would work based on your read of him, then it's a fine play.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Alot of people will advocate folding preflop here, but you have enough chips to take a flop with the suited ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't imagine someone on this forum advocating folding pre-flop in this situation... maybe I haven't been paying attention.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW I think it goes:
1. Folding
2. Raising
3. Completing

IMO of course.

Yugoslav