QQ question, early rounds

[1C5]

Not a specific hand but a question. Party lower buy in levels. If I get KK or AA obviously I will get all of my chips in before the flop if I can.

But say first hand you get QQ. You make a good sized raise and someone pushes all in or raises to 500. Do you call/push here with QQ or fold?

[dfscott]

Warning: inexperienced advice follows...

In the 11s, I see people pushing all-in with crap like ATo and middle pairs, so I usually like to call an early push. If instead they just re-raise a large amount, I'll often push myself if I think I have any fold equity left, otherwise, I'll usually fold since I don't like to play this hand post-flop in a large pot. Unless you get a good flop, it's hard to know how to proceed if an A or K flops.

I'll be interested to see what the experts say...

[PSUinDC]

I dont know, I just answered a post higher up that is discussing pushing early on with TT. I know that a lot of people at the 10+1's push with crap early, but there are still a lot of people that push only with the premium hands. In my opinion, I fold to a push if I have QQ early on, and play to win in the later rounds.

[1C5]

Well JJ and lower I would fold here without thinking twice and KK and AA I push without thinking twice, but not too sure about QQ.

[PSUinDC]

I agree, KK and AA I'll push without thinking twice... and if I hold KK and he holds AA, then I chaulk it up to bad luck and start a new game. I would fold QQ only because there is a perception with newer players that AA and KK are the "allin" hands and I feel like the chances are greater to have someone beat your QQ with KK or AA or AK that it is for your KK to be beaten by AA or AK

[Scuba Chuck]

(Unless I have some sort of past table read on villain...)

FWIW, I call these on the $33s and below. I would fold JJ here. But before I do this, I open up a note on him so that I can write notes on the results.

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
Not a specific hand but a question. Party lower buy in levels. If I get KK or AA obviously I will get all of my chips in before the flop if I can.

But say first hand you get QQ. You make a good sized raise and someone pushes all in or raises to 500. Do you call/push here with QQ or fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you push (you can't really just call 500 at this point, I mean, you've only got ~800, right?), you're playing the "am I crushed" guessing game.

Sure, TT|JJ|AT+|KT+ miiiiight be in the hands of a moron here, but why take that risk? This early in the game fold QQ and get your money in when you know you're a favorite.

[zipppy]

I know it's unlikely, but one could also be up against QQ. Sucks to lay down the exact same hand you're up against.

Should one worry about AK in this spot (since you are a slight favorite)? Or is the correct move to fold simply because they could have AA or KK?

To me, too many players push with inferior hands in this spot at the $11 level to lay this down.

[BigHobo]

[ QUOTE ]
To me, too many players push with inferior hands in this spot at the $11 level to lay this down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Concur. I'll call this every time.

[microbet]

I think it is borderline in the $11's. Kings are clearly worth getting all your money in on and Jacks are clearly not.

I have vacillated on queens, but I think they are worth it unless you have a read on villian indicating otherwise.

I just started the $22's and have seen at least as much early pushing with low pocket pairs as I saw in the $11's. I'll see if these have been the exceptions or the rule.

[pokerlaw]

Early on a party 10+1, I like to put in a reraise of about 1.5-2X the pot, with 1.5 on a tight table and double on a looser one. If I get reraised:

Scenerio 1 - I have a read that he is loose or overvalues average hands (ex: he has been pushing preflop repeatedly or I have seen him play hands like A6o the way I play AK) --> easy push.

Scenerio 2 - no read or read that he is tight/conservative --> fold. It sucks, but I'll still have 500 chips (maybe 700 if it is real early in the tourney), and I tend to do well with a stack that size.

Exception to 2 - reraise, with intent of getting everything in on the hand, if these kinds of re-raise moves have been common so far and/or I have a read that the reraiser is weak/can be bluffed. Sometimes I get a fold here surprisingly. If not, sometimes its just AK, JJ, or even AQ.

Hope this helps.

[11t]

Assuming it was the very first hand than this is an easy easy fold. To be succesful at SNG tournaments you want to limit your gambling to a minimal and taking a coinflip in the first hand to gain a marginal chip advantage is definitely not a way to minimize risk.

If it was a MTT I would push/call.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
To me, too many players push with inferior hands in this spot at the $11 level to lay this down.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Concur. I'll call this every time.


[/ QUOTE ]


(What I am about to say is very buyin dependent)
So what range of hands can you put villain on? IMO, JJ+, AQs+ (and perhaps AJs). Regardless, this range does include AA and KK. So how can we justify the probabilities of calling this allin push?

There are 6 ways to make AA, 6 ways to make KK, 6 ways to make JJ, and just two more ways to make QQ. There are 16 ways to make AK, and 4 ways to make AQs.

That's a total of 40 hand combinations that you could be up against. Of those 40, you will be dominated by 12. IMO, this is an edge that you have to take in a SNG.

Finally, and very important, on the $55s, I very frequently see people push their stacks in early with a hand like 88. How does this make you feel about your call now?

Scuba
(PS - is this a results oriented question?)

[microbet]

Well, it really isn't a coinflip. That's a good argument for not being allin with AK early, where you will often be a coinflip to underpair.

QQ is only a coinflip with AK.

Now, it might be a coinflip as far as longterm ROI is concerned, and if it were truly 50/50 longterm, you should avoid it as it will only increase variance. But, if it is slightly good for your ROI then you should take it.

It's also not a marginal chip advantage.

If QQ is an 'easy easy' fold, what is KK?

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming it was the very first hand than this is an easy easy fold. To be succesful at SNG tournaments you want to limit your gambling to a minimal and taking a coinflip in the first hand to gain a marginal chip advantage is definitely not a way to minimize risk.

If it was a MTT I would push/call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this mean if you're on the button first hand with KK and UTG pushes allin you'd fold? How about Aces?

I don't mean for this to sound rhetorical...there may be merit to laying down the better hand in this situation. Thoughts?

ps. I wouldn't lay down any of the above hands to minimize risk.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming it was the very first hand than this is an easy easy fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
If it was a MTT I would push/call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can anyone see how this answer is bassackwards?

[BigHobo]

[ QUOTE ]
So what range of hands can you put villain on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Most likely scenario in my opinion is low-medium pocket pairs. Lousy players LOVE pushing with mediocre pocket pairs. I don't know why, but I see it all the time.

[skovsende]

Why play a hand where i am 60:40 favourite, when i will have 2-4 chances in the first 4 levels where i will probably be a 90:10 favourite?

Dont underestimate the poor skills of $11-22 players - they will usually give you plenty of better oppertunities.

Is it +EV to call QQ - definately. Is it even more +EV to wait for a better moment - i believe so.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it +EV to call QQ - definately. Is it even more +EV to wait for a better moment - i believe so.


[/ QUOTE ]

Gulp. Can't believe I'm reading this...

[KJ o]

[ QUOTE ]
Why play a hand where i am 60:40 favourite, when i will have 2-4 chances in the first 4 levels where i will probably be a 90:10 favourite?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you exaggerate or your math is off?

Do you typically got 4 chances in the next 39 hands where you are "probably 90:10 favorite"? Really? Can I have some of the aces you have up your sleeve?

[skovsende]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why play a hand where i am 60:40 favourite, when i will have 2-4 chances in the first 4 levels where i will probably be a 90:10 favourite?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you exaggerate or your math is off?

Do you typically got 4 chances in the next 39 hands where you are "probably 90:10 favorite"? Really? Can I have some of the aces you have up your sleeve?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough - but i have 2-4 chances where i would say i am at least 70:30 favourite.

And offcourse not all of them will be all in situations, so i wont get the chance to double up.

My point was that with the kind of bad players on smaller SnGs, I will get better chances to win chips than a QQ early on.

I am sorry I hid that argument behind bad math! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[maldini]

i fold. people go all in with midpairs to limpers. dont know that they do this so much early to a raiser. if I'm first in LP and he's in the blinds i may call but that's it.

to justify: even if you win the hand you may not finish ITM, if you lose you definitely dont finish ITM. even if you're ahead you dont necessarily win the hand. i fold and wait for a better spot against bad opponents. against good opponents i call.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]

to justify: even if you win the hand you may not finish ITM, if you lose you definitely dont finish ITM. even if you're ahead you dont necessarily win the hand. i fold and wait for a better spot against bad opponents. against good opponents i call.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could make this argument for just about any preflop situation in the first 4 levels. Are you next going to recommend that players sit out the first 3 rounds and just write down notes on their oppenents? I take it you'd also fold aces in this situation? (since "even if you win the hand you may not finish ITM, if you lose you definitely dont finish ITM. even if you're ahead you dont necessarily win the hand.")

>>Zipppy

[J-Lo]

I happily go all in w/ QQ early in low buyin SNG's... end of discussion...

seriously though, JJ is marginal. But i feel that these monkeys see AJ and love pushin that crap.

Just today in a $27 SNG, early on 8 people left. Small stack raises, i call w/ AK, stack the same size mine goes all in. Small stack calls, i fold... both turn over KQo...

I kickmyself for folding AK, but AK is significantly different from QQ, QQ you dominate many more hands.

[ethan]

[ QUOTE ]
Party lower buy in levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

Open up your player notes for whoever pushed (so you can note what he had even if you win), then call. At these levels the preflop overbet push early is more often 77-JJ than AA-KK. You'll see AK a bunch too, but you're a 60:40 favorite and probably getting 1.2:1 from the pot or so.

[raptor517]

in a 10+1 i dont even think about folding QQ preflop in this situation. people push everything, and im not folding a hand beaten by only 2 others. holla

[lastchance]

In a 10+1, I don't see how you justify folding QQ with most people willing to show AT+, KQ, and 66+. I think Jacks are marginal, but I'd be willing to call an all-in with those. I'd almost never fold QQ pf though, it'd take 3-4 players all-in, and it'd be a hard time to lay down AK.

[toby]

I agree...definitely call. Might be a little results oriented but I started playing SNG's again after a long time. Very first hand is QQ in the SB. 3 Limpers and I raise to 70. BB folds and EP limper calls, MP limper reraises to 325. Button limper pushes. I figure at best I'm against AK and fold.

EP limper calls, and I feel good about the fold. MP reraiser calls also. 3 way all in pot.

Button had K2o, EP had K4s, MP had 99.

What??

Never folding QQ in that spot again, barring a read on someone as a player who isn't insane.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming it was the very first hand than this is an easy easy fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
If it was a MTT I would push/call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can anyone see how this answer is bassackwards?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take a stab: because you have many more opportunities in a MTT so you can be more selective about playing close EV situations.

[1C5]

You guys will laugh at this one from tonite. Funny enough just what we have been talking about. I get QQ and look what happens...


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t755)
BB (t240)
Hero (t790)
UTG+1 (t1650)
UTG+2 (t745)
MP1 (t755)
MP2 (t350)
MP3 (t775)
CO (t1480)
Button (t460)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t60</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, Button calls t60, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t325</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t790 (All-In)</font>, Button calls t400 (All-In), SB calls t430 (All-In).

Flop: (t2020) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 3 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t2020) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 3 all-in)</font>

River: (t2020) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 3 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t2020

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has Kd Kh (two pair, kings and sixes).
Hero has Qc Qs (two pair, queens and sixes).
Button has As Ah (two pair, aces and sixes).
Outcome: Button wins t1395. SB wins t590. Hero wins t35. </font>

[KJ o]

Is there really any point in taking notes at Party $10+1? There are, literally, hundreds of thousands of players, so the probability of you seeing an early all-in push twice from the same player when you have something that even remotely deserves calling must be truly microscopic.

I only have 200+ $10+1 in PT, but I have faced one player three times, some ten players twice and more than two thousand players once.

(In theory, you are of course correct. As well as on other sites and on other limits.)

[Scuba Chuck]

I think Lorinda's advice about taking notes on the sub $22s is the best. Only take notes on how is a fellow 2+2er, or a real solid player. That way when you open a new table, you can tell how much competition is there right away, making your decision to sit down easier.

[KJ o]

I find that the tables fill up so quickly that I can't really afford not to click on whatever seat is closest to the pointer.

It has happened more than once that they create four tables, I open one and click a seat but someone else beats me to it. I click another seat, but someone beats me to that too. Then the table is full so I have to close it and open another one, but that table has also filled up and I have to wait for four new tables. (Mind you that's only a minute or so, but still.)

And please no jokes about how I'm senile and don't know how to operate a computer. Thanks! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[rachelwxm]

It really depends on opponent, but in general at 10+1 I would not fold QQ here, not even JJ sometimes. At $30s or above, I fold QQ here.

[GtrHtr]

After yesterday I have developed a new strategy when dealt QQ prior to being ITM. I shoot myself in the head.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
I find that the tables fill up so quickly that I can't really afford not to click on whatever seat is closest to the pointer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto.

[ QUOTE ]
And please no jokes about how I'm senile

[/ QUOTE ]

To hear my wife talk, I nearly am.

[ QUOTE ]
and don't know how to operate a computer.

[/ QUOTE ]

But thank god those two don't necessarily go hand in hand.

[bweiser8311962]

i got QQ in first hand today. I raised, got reraised then called. I pushed all-in and got called by 10s and 7s. I tripled up on first and won the tournament. (Low buy-in: 5 I think, maybe 3).

Of course, the only $20 on party I played I got QQ first hand and lost to AA. But I'd still push that one.