Is this a fold?

[Swiss Cheese]

10-20 game 9 handed EP player limps Mp player raises I call with As-10s 1 other caller BB. 4 see the flop.

Flop Ad-6h-8s checked to raiser he bets I raise( I have not played against this player before today-so far seemed fairly solid though) BB calls 2 cold Original raiser 3 bets...I call. This is my question....Should I have folded right there?

The result is I paired the 10 on the river and beat a hand that was not shown when he called my river raise. Even though I won I am feeling as though this was an obvious laydown in hindsight. the other player stayed till the river callling all bets with what I am not sure a poor A I assume.

Thanks in advance.

Swiss Cheese

[John Gaspar]

I don't think you fold on the flop. You are behind but the pot is laying you 15-1 on your call and it is unlikely that the BB is going to raise. You have outs with the 3 tens and backdoor flush draw. I may have folded on the turn if no flush or 10 hits. You now have 3 outs and the pot is only laying you 170 - 20 or 8.5-1 on a 13 or 14-1 shot.

If you had planned on seeing the river regardless of what hit the turn and you were going to call a river bet, you should probably fold for the 3 bet on the flop. It's going to cost you a minimum of $50 for a pot of $230 so you are getting 4.5-1 for a 14-1 shot (hitting a 10).

[Kevin J]

"Flop Ad-6h-8s checked to raiser he bets I raise( I have not played against this player before today-so far seemed fairly solid though) BB calls 2 cold Original raiser 3 bets...I call. This is my question....Should I have folded right there"

This (and the river) seem to be the easiest decisions of the hand. Wouldn't it be much more productive to discuss the pre-flop and turn?

[Ray Zee]

i think you should have folded preflop. see what happens when you play these kind of hands into strength. on the flop you should also know you need a ten to have a chance to win even before you got three bet. plus did you consider the bb may very well have 7,9 which makes your hand dead.

[al raiseya]

Unless you know the raiser to be a loose raiser, then you probably shouldnt play the hand pre-flop
seeya

[mikelow]

calling raises cold can be an expensive habit. It's close but I would have folded preflop (unless I was steaming).

[MichaelD]

Swiss,

I am assuming this was at Hollywood. Depending on the player, I would usually fold this hand pre-flop, unless he was one of the Hollywood specials - meaning a complete moron - then I would 3 bet and try to isolate. You indicated that he seemed solid though - so I would rather be safe then sorry and fold.

Hands like this make their money when you can make the nut flush or straight and get paid off in a few spots. They are mostly over rated though because they are trap hands - in many situations - as you found out here - you are never sure where you are at and thus cannot maximize your profit if you are ahead and unfortunately - one always seems to maximize your loss if you are behind - because you never really know. I would not suggest calling raises with a hand like this unless many people are seeing the flop AND you can lay down a bad A in a situation such as this.

Just some thoughts...

Michael D.

[astroglide]

fold preflop. who cares abuot the rest?

[Kevin J]

"I would usually fold this hand pre-flop, unless he was one of the Hollywood specials - meaning a complete moron - then I would 3 bet and try to isolate."

Just curious.. What would you do if it's the first limper who's the complete moron and MP knows this? I'm not saying even then it would be right to play ATs, but it's why I thought the pre-flop decisions were far more interesting than whether or not to take another one off getting 15 to 1. I'm not sure about the raise on the flop either. "Folding", then "calling" seem better to me with "raising" being my last choice.

[Kevin J]

Swiss-

I can't help notice that most everyone suggests folding pre-flop. I find this interesting because ironically, I've been trying to find a few more hands I can add to my game (including raised pots) and this would be one which I'd at least consider. Much would depend on other factors such as who's already in etc., but if I could expect a few callers or if I was on the button, I'd strongly consider playing ATs. The caveat is that I wouldn't want to flop a pair of aces. I'd be looking for a big draw, trips, or two pair. When that ace flops, I think it helps to be able to recognize when your hand might hold considerably less value now, than it had pre-flop even though you've flopped top pair. IMO-

It's a tough hand to play for a raise, but I think it was Mason who said that if you want to get real good at playing in marginal spots, you've got to get yourself in them once in a while.

[MichaelD]

Kevin,

To be honest, I am not really sure what you are getting at here. Nevertheless, I will share a few thoughts on what I am guessing you are getting at...

While it is very possible, and probably likely /forums/images/icons/grin.gif that the early limper is a moron, I am not sure how it would affect my play with the A10 suited.

IF the original raiser is trying to isolate the limper, I think he is going to have a difficult time in this type of situation against this type of opponent who has shown no aggression. Unless the early position player is aggressive and raises allowing the mp to 3-bet him thus forcing others to call 3-bets cold, I am not sure how this would affect the hand enough to make that big of a difference in this situation. Simply forcing players to call 2-bets cold will not succeed in isolating a moronic early limper at Hollywood a majority of the time and I am pretty sure we would both agree it is not going to get him to fold.

Now if Swiss were to 3-bet his A10 suited and try to isolate the mp raiser who may have been trying to isolate the ep limper, then I could see what you are getting at. If this is what you are getting at, I seriously doubt however that it would accomplish much other than to get more chips in the pot and maybe allow Swiss to have the initiative in the hand. If the ep limper is a complete moron, he will probably want to see the flop anyway since he already has an investment in the pot.

However, if what you are getting at is that the ep limper being a complete moron may lend a bit more legitimacy to the decision to call or 3 bet the mp raiser pre-flop based on the idea that mp may be trying to isolate, I see your point. However, I am not sure I personally would want to try and isolate with a hand as weak as this. Generally speaking, A10 suited might not do very well against the hands the mp may try to isolate with. This hand is obviously an underdog to many holdings - AJ off suit as well as any pair comes to mind here. The flush possibilities add little value with a 2 or 3 person field. On top of this, the ability to get away from the hand if an A hits - among other factors after the flop - must still be a consideration if one is to play it. All in all, I think I would wait for a better opportunity unless I saw a definite pattern emerging.

Now if I did see a pattern with the mp player trying to isolate the ep limper with some questionable holdings, then I would adjust my play accordingly and A10 - suited or not - may actually be an isolation hand in this situation. But I would have to see a definite pattern of weaks hands being raised by the mp, and even then I would be cautious as the other players in the game may adjust to my moves as well. I guess that in games such as the typical 10-20 and 20-40 at Hollywood, I find it mostly unnecessary to take things to levels such as this. More often than not, easier, if not better situations will present themselves over the course of a playing session and make me less inclined to mix it up too often in potentially confusing/dangerous situations such as this.

Maybe I am missing your point here, in which case I profusely apologize for my lengthy and pointless rambling explanation about nothing /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

If I did miss your point, could you please elaborate further so I may understand what you are thinking?

Sometimes you gotta make things simple for fishies such as me. /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

Just some thoughts...

Michael D.

"It's a tough hand to play for a raise, but I think it was Mason who said that if you want to get real good at playing in marginal spots, you've got to get yourself in them once in a while."

Kevin-

That is utter bullshit.
I sometimes think that half of what some of you guys post here is to encourage others to play badly.

The Professional

[Swiss Cheese]

I find it interesting that everyone said to fold pre-flop. I understand folding A-10 to a raise but he was in MP with 1 loose early limper and I felt that he was going for the isolation. I also felt that if He did have a A-K A-Q he has shown he will lay it down post flop when there is no help. I think that you have to win a few(very few) with out the best hand. Am I way off base?


Swiss Cheese

Kevin,

When I think about adding hands to my HE game, these are not the kinds of hands I think about. I am actually in a "subtracting" phase right now, so I will have to switch hats.

The problem with this hand is that it is so often dominated by a mp raiser. If you are "looking for a big draw, 2 pr, or trips" (and then it's tens, not aces), you are just not getting odds to play what may be a 4 way or 3 way pot for 2 bets. I would prefer a suited connector in this spot, though I'd probably dump it, too, unless the games was very loose, or it was KQs.

3 betting is a possibility if you are playing just to steal, but it's hard to isolate someone from MP with a lone raise, so the raiser probably has a hand. They usually do anyway.

When I am in the "looking to add hands" mode, it's playing pocket pairs more often (in the L-A Paradise games I play in), and mediocre to weak suited hands in late position in unraised multiway pots. SOmetimes add more "2 high cards" hands against 1 or 2 limpers who aren't very good, but only from very late or the SB.

Flip a coin with the call or fold. Decisions like this don't really matter to your overall expectation

[astroglide]

terribly clever - also wrong.

[Kevin J]

"That is utter bullshit."

It's not BS that Mason said this. It's written somehwere and I can prove it. I wouldn't make something like that up and attribute it to him. Honest.

As to the validity of the statement (playing marginal situations makes one better at marginal situations), I happen to believe it's valid. Some of the best players I know, can play their way through marginal spots very well. I'm not saying you look for these situations, but sometimes games are such where you're gonna find yourself in them whether you like it or not. You may as well get good at them. Nothing teaches like experience. IMO-

[Kevin J]

Dan-

Of course you are right and I think I may have given the wrong impression. Believe me, I'm not one who plays in many raised pots. But I believe S&M say you should play AJs in this spot for a raise in a "typical" game. I realize AJs is better than ATs, but you still might be faced with some of the same problems when flopping an ace.

It's interesting you'd be more inclined to play the pocket pair here (I'm not saying that would be wrong). But a pocket pair's main value and hope is to flop a set and I like to be sure the game is playing loose AND aggressive enough to insure my implied odds are there for when I flop a set. In a loose but more passive game, I prefer the drawing hands. Especially ones that can make the nuts in a couple of different ways.

Again, I'm not saying I play ATs in any raised pot or even in many raised pots. I think it's very situational and I was not in the game when Swiss played the hand, so I really can't say what I think the correct play pre-flop would've been.

[Kevin J]

"I think that you have to win a few(very few) with out the best hand. Am I way off base?"

I agree with this. But I also think that as more players and bets go into the pot pre-flop, the more likely that you'll have to wind up with the the best hand to win.

Well I have to agree w/most that its a fold preflop.

But I think on the flop (after you raised and got reraised), you should
call. You have backdoor flush draw, and (very) back door straight draw
(79), and a ten is likely to be good.

Somehow though, I thought most of the responses should have focused
on the flop play, and not the preflop play.

A-10s should be folded. Better opportunities will come. However, medium or even small suited connectors should warrant a call about half the time. 5-6s can do quite admirably, and is easy to let go if you flop blanks.

I think I may have been unclear again. I would not play a bad pocket pair in this spot, though I think it's slightly better than ATs.

All I was trying to say was that ATs for a likely legit raise is not one of those spots to "loosen up" with, and it would take some pretty unusual opponents to change that.