15/30 KQ checked to on the river [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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kurosh

03-04-2005, 10:07 AM

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $15.
4 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO (poster) checks, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (10 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Hero bets, SB folds, BB raises, MP2 folds, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (9 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero ???

BB is loose. Not much else of a read.

This is a clear bet and fold to a check raise, right? He could easily have had a draw or a weak queen. I don't think two-pair or a set is checking to me on a river ace.

bakku

03-04-2005, 10:25 AM

Not 3-betting the flop/raising the turn is bad.

kurosh

03-04-2005, 10:46 AM

Why would I ever 3-bet the flop?

sfer

03-04-2005, 10:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why would I ever 3-bet the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would because I like money. Your reasons are your own.

kurosh

03-04-2005, 10:53 AM

I guess I like more money because 3-betting the flop is a horrible play.

BottlesOf

03-04-2005, 10:56 AM

No it's not. Not given your reads. He check-raised a late position pfr on the flop, don't be scurred.

chief444

03-04-2005, 11:04 AM

This is a pretty obvious "thin the field" type flop raise. Two pair or better would probably lead and hope to 3-bet. If you call the flop you at least need to raise the turn. But I would probably just 3-bet the flop.

Rico Suave

03-04-2005, 11:05 AM

I will add a 4th voice to the 3-bet the flop or raise the turn chorus.

--Rico

edit: 5th voice now

kurosh

03-04-2005, 11:07 AM

Him CRing decreases the chances of him having a draw. If he does have a draw, you want to pop him on the turn.

If he has some kind of a pair, he's drawing to 5 outs at best. If I 3-bet, he will shut down and go into calldown mode or CR me on the turn where I will be in an awkward spot. I want him to keep betting into me.

If he has two-pair or a set and is ahead of me, he will most likely call the 3-bet and CR me on the turn or cap the flop and lead the turn.

I lose the most when I am behind and gain the least when I am ahead if I 3-bet the flop. 3-betting the flop is a horrible play.

sfer

03-04-2005, 11:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I like more money because 3-betting the flop is a horrible play.

[/ QUOTE ]

scrub is right.

chief444

03-04-2005, 11:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Him CRing decreases the chances of him having a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
It also decreases the chances of him having a big hand. He would most likely just bet the flop with that since you'll raise a lot of the time anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
If he has some kind of a pair, he's drawing to 5 outs at best. If I 3-bet, he will shut down and go into calldown mode

[/ QUOTE ]
Once he gets it heads-up he's probably thinking cheap showdown anyway and with or without the Ace likely would have check/called the river.

sthief09

03-04-2005, 11:13 AM

he has a T or a worse Q. he's just not value betting well. when someone checks like this it means he wants to get to showdown cheap. he's scared of AK. your hand is good. 3-bet the flop. don't get pushed around and miss bets

kurosh

03-04-2005, 11:14 AM

I didn't say anything about raising the turn. Raising the turn is probably correct.

kurosh

03-04-2005, 11:15 AM

Yes, my hand is probably good. So why wouldn't I want him to bet on the turn and raise him there rather than him checking to me if I 3-bet the flop?

sthief09

03-04-2005, 11:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, my hand is probably good. So why wouldn't I want him to bet on the turn and raise him there rather than him checking to me if I 3-bet the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

you can do that too. but you didn't

sthief09

03-04-2005, 11:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess I like more money because 3-betting the flop is a horrible play.

[/ QUOTE ]

scrub is right.

[/ QUOTE ]

hahaha I was thinking the exact same thing

kurosh

03-04-2005, 11:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess I like more money because 3-betting the flop is a horrible play.

[/ QUOTE ]

scrub is right.

[/ QUOTE ]

hahaha I was thinking the exact same think

[/ QUOTE ]

??

sthief09

03-04-2005, 11:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I like more money because 3-betting the flop is a horrible play.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you wait until the turn to raise everytime, they can just start folding. it's a pretty obvious slowplay unless you're doing the same thing as a semibluff a lot. plus, you save a bet when he's ahead and people are more willing to go nuts on the flop, so a turn raise doesn't necessarily even make you that extra SB.

and what's a million times worse than a 3-bet is the fact that you didn't raise the turn and were contemplating checking the river.

kurosh

03-04-2005, 11:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess I like more money because 3-betting the flop is a horrible play.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you wait until the turn to raise everytime, they can just start folding. it's a pretty obvious slowplay unless you're doing the same thing as a semibluff a lot. plus, you save a bet when he's ahead and people are more willing to go nuts on the flop, so a turn raise doesn't necessarily even make you that extra SB.

and what's a million times worse than a 3-bet is the fact that you didn't raise the turn and were contemplating checking the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for explaining the reasoning. I still like raising the turn more but I see why occasionally you would 3-bet the flop.

I post hands here where I think I screwed up or something odd happens. Naturally, I bet the river. He had QTo for 2-pair and MHING. I wanted to see other people's line of reasoning and see if they could put him on that.

sfer

03-04-2005, 11:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I wanted to see other people's line of reasoning and see if they could put him on that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, loose player + flop action that could be a large range of hands, most of which you beat. I put him on Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Did I get the suits right?

PokerBob

03-04-2005, 11:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $15.
4 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO (poster) checks, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (10 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Hero bets, SB folds, BB raises, MP2 folds, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (9 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero ???

BB is loose. Not much else of a read.

This is a clear bet and fold to a check raise, right? He could easily have had a draw or a weak queen. I don't think two-pair or a set is checking to me on a river ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet and angrily call raise. I have no idea why, but that is what I do.
I 3-bet the flop, by the way.

scrub

03-04-2005, 02:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess I like more money because 3-betting the flop is a horrible play.

[/ QUOTE ]

scrub is right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was there ever any doubt?

scrub

PokerBob

03-04-2005, 03:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess I like more money because 3-betting the flop is a horrible play.

[/ QUOTE ]

scrub is right.

[/ QUOTE ]

hahaha I was thinking the exact same thing

[/ QUOTE ]

I need help, cuz I think I auto 3-bet this flop. I am begining to see the light with the turn raise, as we most likely are ahead and have villain drawing slim. My probelm is this: I smooth call the flop. I raise the turn. Can I safely fold to a 3-bet if a brick hit the turn? /images/graemlins/confused.gif