Here's a Candidate for Slowplaying [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

waynethetrain

03-03-2005, 03:54 PM

Not sure what I was thinking, but I cost myself a chance to make some extra money considering the flop was 3 suited an there were no connectors.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP1 posts a blind of $1. Hero posts a blind of $1.
2 folds, MP1 (poster) checks, 1 fold, MP3 calls, Hero (poster) checks, 2 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, BB folds, MP1 folds, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: 2.75 BB

btspider

03-03-2005, 03:56 PM

nice hand. checking closing the action when there are no second best hands to be made sucks.

davelin

03-03-2005, 03:57 PM

If they weren't willing to pay for a 1SB, what makes you think they would've put in a full BB?

Entity

03-03-2005, 03:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If they weren't willing to pay for a 1SB, what makes you think they would've put in a full BB?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ding ding ding ding ding!

topspin

03-03-2005, 03:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure what I was thinking

[/ QUOTE ]

"I need better table selection"? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Given you're last to act, I think the bet is fine. You realize that only one other person VPIP'd this hand, right? Chances are no one had jack all. If they aren't going to call for 1SB in a 5SB pot, what makes you think they would have called a turn bet of 1BB in a 2BB pot?

waynethetrain

03-03-2005, 04:07 PM

>If they weren't willing to pay for a 1SB, what makes you think they would've put in a full BB? <

If the turn was an A, Q, J or even T and someone made a pair, they might have been tempted to bet the turn given that everyone checked the flop. Perhaps someone would have even tried a bluff. I didn't give them a chance to make a bettable hand or bluff. I was so far ahead and the pot was so small I wasn't risking much to slow play it. If the pot was raised pre flop and larger, then betting out is a much clearer choice.

davelin

03-03-2005, 04:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
>If they weren't willing to pay for a 1SB, what makes you think they would've put in a full BB? <

If the turn was an A, Q, J or even T and someone made a pair, they might have been tempted to bet the turn given that everyone checked the flop. Perhaps someone would have even tried a bluff. I didn't give them a chance to make a bettable hand or bluff. I was so far ahead and the pot was so small I wasn't risking much to slow play it. If the pot was raised pre flop and larger, then betting out is a much clearer choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of those same players will peel one off the flop. You're being results-oriented, this bet here was perfectly fine.

phredd

03-03-2005, 04:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Given you're last to act, I think the bet is fine. You realize that only one other person VPIP'd this hand, right? Chances are no one had jack all. If they aren't going to call for 1SB in a 5SB pot, what makes you think they would have called a turn bet of 1BB in a 2BB pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the poster. If everyone checks to you, check behind and give them a chance to pick up a pair, any pair. Some folks could run with that. If it's checked to you on the turn, check through to the river, too. You're way, way ahead. Let somebody hit something and let them believe you haven't. If they bet and you raise, they might even call that if they suspect you of trying to steal.

Poster is right - this almost demands a slow play.

shadow29

03-03-2005, 04:18 PM

When I think back on it, every concious decision I've made to slowplay has always backfired.

Slowplaying sucks.

davelin

03-03-2005, 04:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Poster is right - this almost demands a slow play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh...

chris_a

03-03-2005, 04:21 PM

You shouldn't make conclusions like this based on the outcomes of one hand. Make them based on proper concepts.

The criterion for slowplaying in HEPFAP is (and you need all three)
A) The pot needs to be small.
B) There has to be very little chance of being outdrawn.
C) If you bet now opponents will probably fold, but if you give them a free card, they may improve to a decent second best hand.

They all seem partially true, A) is probably the most true. B) is the the next most true.

C) is strange because you are last to act. They might be expecting a bet from you here since you are last to act. It is probably unlikely for them to fold to this bet if they have a pocket pair, a 4, or maybe even an Ace. If they have complete junk, then this criterion is pretty satisfied, but what are the chances that 3 players have none of these. Moderate.

Slowplaying, but I wouldn't do it here because betting doesn't give away much or cost you much due to C)

KaiShin

03-03-2005, 04:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with the poster. If everyone checks to you, check behind and give them a chance to pick up a pair, any pair. Some folks could run with that. If it's checked to you on the turn, check through to the river, too. You're way, way ahead. Let somebody hit something and let them believe you haven't. If they bet and you raise, they might even call that if they suspect you of trying to steal.

Poster is right - this almost demands a slow play.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is awful advice IMO.

Entity

03-03-2005, 04:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Given you're last to act, I think the bet is fine. You realize that only one other person VPIP'd this hand, right? Chances are no one had jack all. If they aren't going to call for 1SB in a 5SB pot, what makes you think they would have called a turn bet of 1BB in a 2BB pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the poster. If everyone checks to you, check behind and give them a chance to pick up a pair, any pair. Some folks could run with that. If it's checked to you on the turn, check through to the river, too. You're way, way ahead. Let somebody hit something and let them believe you haven't. If they bet and you raise, they might even call that if they suspect you of trying to steal.

Poster is right - this almost demands a slow play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against your average party poker player, betting the flop is correct because you will often get calls by hands that are drawing dead.

Rob

Thigh

03-03-2005, 04:23 PM

I think I've almost fully given up on slowplaying. Maybe, if I get too many monster hands and realize that for 20 hands in a row, that I keep scaring everybody out of the pot I'll rethink my position.

In the meantime, I'll be damned if I'm gonna let someone suck out on me for free. If they want to fold, fine. I'll take the money they gave me and smile.

bigmac366

03-03-2005, 04:25 PM

sorry i dont have the hand history for this, nearly identical hand though.

hero is in the BB with J /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif

flop is J /images/graemlins/spade.gifj /images/graemlins/heart.gif3 /images/graemlins/club.gif

hero checks, villian checks.

turn 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

hero bets,villian raises, next two streets capped.

villian turns over 77 and i have no one to blame but myself.

wabe

03-03-2005, 04:25 PM

waynethetrain

03-03-2005, 04:26 PM

Just for the record. I can't even remember the last time I slowplayed trips. However, if there was ever a right time to do so, this was certainly it.

The flop was 3 suited, unconnected, and it was a very small pot. The chances of me losing were extremely low and there was certainly some decent upside if someone caught a pair or tried a bluff. The downside was minimal even in those extremely rare instances where there was a runner runner of As or something.

I think this is a slowplay, but generally I am 100% against slowplaying trips.

Thigh

03-03-2005, 04:27 PM

Were you trying to c/r the flop? This kind of goes to my post where I said I'm not letting anyone suck out on me for free.

phredd

03-03-2005, 04:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[T]his almost demands a slow play.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is awful advice IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? The pot is small, the other players are very likely to fold to a bet, and the other players could well improve only slightly and think they have the best of it. I'm not a big advocate of the slow-play, but in this case, doesn't everything line up? If not, why not? When *would* you slow play?

KaiShin

03-03-2005, 04:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[T]his almost demands a slow play.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is awful advice IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? The pot is small, the other players are very likely to fold to a bet, and the other players could well improve only slightly and think they have the best of it. I'm not a big advocate of the slow-play, but in this case, doesn't everything line up? If not, why not? When *would* you slow play?

[/ QUOTE ]
I slowplay when playing NL. At these limits, with the types of players that frequent these limits, I keep the slowplay out of the bag of tricks.

At the very least, if you're going to slowplay it, bet the turn if its checked to you for baby Jesus' sake.

davelin

03-03-2005, 04:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Just for the record. I can't even remember the last time I slowplayed trips. However, if there was ever a right time to do so, this was certainly it.

The flop was 3 suited, unconnected, and it was a very small pot. The chances of me losing were extremely low and there was certainly some decent upside if someone caught a pair or tried a bluff. The downside was minimal even in those extremely rare instances where there was a runner runner of As or something.

I think this is a slowplay, but generally I am 100% against slowplaying trips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, there are times when you could've picked up a bluffing bet here or there by passing up the flop. But those times are UNCERTAIN. What if someone had 77-JJ here? That person is happy to call you all the way down. Someone with an Ace will sometimes feel one off the flop anyway. Someone who paired the third card here will call a small bet on the flop.

Yes there are times where checking will give you more expectation. But unfortunately you don't know those times and when. I'd say something like 85% of the time you're better off betting here, 15% checking. You happen to hit one of those 15% times. Betting is the best long-term solution.

phredd

03-03-2005, 04:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
At these limits, with the types of players that frequent these limits, I keep the slowplay out of the bag of tricks.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, so your advice is never slow play. Fine.

[ QUOTE ]
At the very least, if you're going to slowplay it, bet the turn if its checked to you for baby Jesus' sake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously.

waynethetrain

03-03-2005, 04:35 PM

Exactly. This is what I am saying also.

A and B are clearly OK.

C is the question mark.

I can never know beforehand how many players will call my last position bet or whether they would call again on the turn if I bet again.

However, given that they all checked, there had to be a pretty good chance they all had crap and would fold. I knew that before I bet the flop. Had I checked also and given somebody a chance to catch something, I might have gained a big bet or two with only an extremely small chance of giving up a small pot.

I think this is as close as gets to filling the criteria for a slowplay.

KaiShin

03-03-2005, 04:36 PM

You said to check through the turn in your original post, which is mostly why I said it was awful advice.

I wouldn't say never slowplay, but I definitely would never slowplay trips. Maybe a boat or quads or a SF, but never trips. Of course that situation would occur so rarely as to have no real effect on your profitability.

kenberman

03-03-2005, 04:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If they weren't willing to pay for a 1SB, what makes you think they would've put in a full BB?

[/ QUOTE ]

a hand that improves them to 2nd best - like a pair of aces, or 2 pair

phredd

03-03-2005, 04:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What if someone had 77-JJ here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why didn't they bet the flop with that? That's the hand you want to bet with.

Besides, the odds of holding *any* pocket pair is only 1:16, and the odds of hitting that card on the turn is 2:44, so your risk of losing on a slow play is still very, very small.

I'm just a rookie, so I could be way, way off here. Enlighten me.

waynethetrain

03-03-2005, 04:41 PM

All I can say is that if slowplaying this hand was clearly wrong, then slowplaying is essentially always wrong. I don't believe anyone thinks that slowplaying is always wrong.

KaiShin

03-03-2005, 04:43 PM

I think the trip Ks is not as strong a hand as you give it credit for, or maybe my slowplaying requirements are too tight.

shadow29

03-03-2005, 04:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
All I can say is that if slowplaying this hand was clearly wrong, then slowplaying is essentially always wrong. I don't believe anyone thinks that slowplaying is always wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not always wrong, but generally yes.

jskills

03-03-2005, 04:43 PM

Wow - I was just going to say that. What if villan has a small-medium pocket pair and you allow him to get a free card?

phredd

03-03-2005, 04:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You said to check through the turn in your original post, which is mostly why I said it was awful advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

God, did I say that? I retract. Awful advice.

waynethetrain

03-03-2005, 04:43 PM

"At the very least, if you're going to slowplay it, bet the turn if its checked to you for baby Jesus' sake. "

ROTFLMAO. OK!

Thigh

03-03-2005, 04:44 PM

Actually, I just thought about this, but you've got trips, but not a set. This is definitely not a monster hand. There are too many chances to be outdrawn here.

KaiShin

03-03-2005, 04:44 PM

Consider it retracted /images/graemlins/wink.gif

droolie

03-03-2005, 04:44 PM

You should bet here. The fact that they all folded is the exception to what you should expect. Betting when checked to and acting last actually disguises the fact that you like your hand. So many players slow play when they hit flops like this that your betting does not scare people that you actually have the K. The other thing is that so many players auto-bet when checked to if they are last to act. That bet is often call by everyone becuase no one belives you have anything. If they like they like their hand they may C/R, if they like the turn they'llbet into youor C/R. Try building the pot when players want to peel one off for a sb.

kenberman

03-03-2005, 04:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
sorry i dont have the hand history for this, nearly identical hand though.

hero is in the BB with J /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif

flop is J /images/graemlins/spade.gifj /images/graemlins/heart.gif3 /images/graemlins/club.gif

hero checks, villian checks.

turn 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

hero bets,villian raises, next two streets capped.

villian turns over 77 and i have no one to blame but myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think if you let your opponents draw to 2 outs every time, you'll end up ok.

waynethetrain

03-03-2005, 04:46 PM

The key is that this wasn't just trips. It was trips with a 3 suited and unconnected flop which sharply lowers the chances of someone drawing out on me. Had the flop been either connected, 2 suited, or the pot larger I would have definitely bet and not even considered slowplaying it.

btspider

03-03-2005, 04:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
nice hand. checking closing the action when there are no second best hands to be made sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

this hand is not worth arguing about. it comes down to this:

if the pot were bigger, a bet is *more* correct (OP understands this).

if you had a boat, a check is better (than in this case), since you are invulnerable to 2 outers, and OESD/flush draw pickups on the turn.

if you are closing the action, a bet is more correct since no one else can possibly bet, they may put you on a steal. if you show your hand down, you may have more success stealing other pots in the short-term. if you succeed with the "steal" you may be more apt to get called the next time you value bet.

but really, this is a hand that is near the line, everyone just needs to understand the concerns and what factors pushes it one way or the other.

VBM

03-03-2005, 04:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The flop was 3 suited, unconnected, and it was a very small pot. The chances of me losing were extremely low and there was certainly some decent upside if someone caught a pair or tried a bluff. The downside was minimal even in those extremely rare instances where there was a runner runner of As or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

or Turn: 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif

MP1 bets, you raise, MP1 3-bets, you cap.

<repeat on river>

MP1 shows you 2's full of K's...

davelin

03-03-2005, 04:49 PM

waynethetrain

03-03-2005, 04:51 PM

On a 3 suited, unconnected flop?

It requires runner runner AAs, runner runner suited, or runner runner connected "that matches someone else's holding" and doesn't give me the full house.

davelin

03-03-2005, 04:52 PM

If the action on the flop went check to Hero, Hero bets, Hero gets a call or two we wouldn't be having this conversation honestly.

waynethetrain

03-03-2005, 04:52 PM

I'm OK with that. Let's put this one to rest. :-)

Thigh

03-03-2005, 04:53 PM

K4.

btspider

03-03-2005, 04:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
On a 3 suited, unconnected flop?

It requires runner runner AAs, runner runner suited, or runner runner connected "that matches someone else's holding" and doesn't give me the full house.

[/ QUOTE ]

it doesn't require runner-runner when you give them the first card. they will fold if they are unpaired, undrawed on the turn.

that's the issue with a trip vs boat slowplay. if the pot were bigger, you give someone a viable draw. slowplaying is more correct when there are second best hands to be made.. not live draws that can be made. then those turn bets you make will be correct for your opponent to put in.

droolie

03-03-2005, 04:55 PM

As far as rainbow flops are concerned...if you let the field see the turn for free that rainbow flop can quickly give someone flush draw on the turn. When this happens your hand is suddenly very vulnerable. Trips do not do well against flushes. Make your opponents with backdoor draws make mistakes by calling. You'll feel less foolish when your trips are cracked by runner runner draws.

wyoak

03-03-2005, 05:02 PM

people fold on the flop on party?

the only reason i'd consider slowplaying this is all the posting preflop...even then, I still like betting out. Your kicker is weak. if someone else is slowplaying their K+better kicker (which seems pretty common at this level) and an ace (or Q, or J) comes on the turn, you guys will probably cap each other here and on the river and you'll take a beating. However, betting out on the flop would likely induce the other slowplayer to either raise you here or call and lead the turn, which should probably slow you down.

i'm not very good though so take that with a grain of salt. my logic is probably flawed at some fundamental level.

itsmesteve

03-03-2005, 05:05 PM

Sorry to nitpick, i think this thread is just about dead, but "letting" an opponenet draw to two outs is very, very different than charging them to draw to two outs.

letting him take that card off for free while still having the option to fold without contributing any money when he misses is not ok. say the turn is a deuce. hero bets, villain folds. not gonna call with his sevens.
if he was, then i want the extra sb from the flop in addition to the bb from the turn. you make money from your opponents mistakes. give them an opportunity to make one and you won't be disappointed. seeing a free card is never a mistake.

waynethetrain

03-03-2005, 05:06 PM

I guess we should just put this rest. I "thought" after the fact that I should have given someone a chance to make a pair (and bet) or bluff at the pot. If it was checked around the chances of a bluff increased also.