Another annoying KK hand

[pokerstudAA]

No hand history so humor me....


Hero is BB with K /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif

Preflop: UTG limps, MP limps, SB completes, all others fold. Hero raises. 4 to the flop. 8 SB's

Flop. T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif (dirty flop)

SB checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, MP 3-bets, SB folds, Hero.....? 14 SB's in the pot. Hero must throw in 2SB to call.

[DemonDeac]

id prolly call and then fold the turn with no help

[QTip]

Man that sucks...I don't think you can call that coming back to you for 2 bets not to mention it might get capped. It feels wierd, but I'd have to lay it down.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
id prolly call and then fold the turn with no help

[/ QUOTE ]

What exactly are you drawing to getting 7-1?

EDIT: With no reads this is a fold for me.

[mr pink]

if these guys are at all reasonable, i think it's an easy fold.

[billyjex]

Curse and fold.

[krishanleong]

caps, leads the turn and folds to a raise.

Krishan

[QTip]

Really? What's 3 betting here on a drawless board?

[crunchy1]

This is another good example of why I like checkraising the flop when I've raised PF and the flop comes with a paired board. It's already a big pot with 4 to the flop for 2 bets each and you're goal with a premium hand should be to win and win now - I think that with this board checkraising is the play.

First - if you check and it comes back to you with 2-bets cold (with no previously invested flop bet) I think it's a lot easier fold then when it's back 2 bets to you from a flop 3-bet and you've already invested a SB on the flop.

Second - I think you want to keep the pot small on hands like this and not give crazy backdoor draws odds to suck out on you - check raising when it's only one bet back to you will help fold out those. It will also alert you to the T if it's out there as it's likely the only hand that will 3-bet your checkraise. If villian waits until the turn to raise your turn lead with his T (as long as he's not a tricky player) I think (because of your flop checkraise) it's a pretty easy fold here too.

My point here is that raising PF and then leading out on the flop is such a standard play that it's easy for players to mess with you on boards like this. It's easy for them to raise and 3-bet lower pairs, gutshot/backdoor draws when they always put you on two big cards and are certain you didn't catch a piece of that board. Showing them the ultimate strength play (the checkraise) puts you back in control of the hand - IMO.

[QTip]

I've got to think about that some....how many times are you will it be checked through on a board like this? I'd hate to see that happen.

[pokerstudAA]

I am getting mixed signals here. Here are my options.

1: [ QUOTE ]
id prolly call and then fold the turn with no help


[/ QUOTE ]
So call 2 bets getting 7:1 and look for a 2-outer or fold? 2 SB's.

2: [ QUOTE ]
I'd have to lay it down.

[/ QUOTE ]

But they are kings... no more SB's

3: [ QUOTE ]
Curse and fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, more like it. I did curse and fold. "[censored] this shitty flop stupid [censored] has a ten [censored] my shitty kings." No SB's.

4: [ QUOTE ]
caps, leads the turn and folds to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Capping is not good here in my opinion. Why do you think I should cap? 6 SB's to the cap and bet turn.

5: [ QUOTE ]
This is another good example of why I like checkraising the flop when I've raised PF and the flop comes with a paired board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting....I like it more. This plan will definately slow down someone with out a ten. You are right that leading this flop being the PFR gets no respect. So I Stick in 2 SB's with the check raise mabye 3 if someone 3-bet and I call. Lead the turn....getting expensive if someone has a ten now. 5 SB's to the turn...

So if I get to the turn I should lead and then fold to a raise.

[crunchy1]

Why? When that flop gets checked through I'm leading the turn with confidence and hoping there is a smaller pair out there calling me down to the river. If everyone folds I'm more than content taking down 4 PF BB's on a board that I missed and was pretty scary.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
5: [ QUOTE ]
This is another good example of why I like checkraising the flop when I've raised PF and the flop comes with a paired board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting....I like it more. Leading this flop being the PFR gets no respect. So I Stick in 2 SB's with the check raise mabye 3 if someone 3-bet and I call. Lead the turn....getting expensive if someone has a ten now. 5 SB's to the turn...
So if I get to the turn I should lead and then fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup.

I think if you get 3-bet on the flop you angrily call on more SB hoping to spike your K on the turn and then check-raise again... hehe...

Otherwise you lead the turn and fold to a raise unless you have some great deep-into-their soul read.

I think you're putting in 2-3BBs (2-2.5SB on flop and 1BB on turn) to win about 10BB. Does anyone think we're not gonna take it down here over 20-30% of the time we play the hand this way (not counting the times we really luck out and spike the turn king to win a monster)?

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
on a board that I missed and was pretty scary.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I don't' hit trips with KK, I don't consider that a miss.

Also, I don't find a paired board with a monster starter to be scary. To me, it gives less odds that someone actually hit the board.

[Ice]

Pokerstud

I like the bet on the flop and then i would call the raises. On the turn i would check and see how the action went down. If it gets bet then raised i'm probably going to have to muck. If it goes check,check bet i might raise to knock the other player out but it depends on your read of the bettor.

I don't like the checkraise on the flop because a lot of times it gets checked through and you have given a free card.I'm not saying i don't do it but in general i like to lead.Best of luck. Ice

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
on a board that I missed and was pretty scary.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I don't' hit trips with KK, I don't consider that a miss.

Also, I don't find a paired board with a monster starter to be scary. To me, it gives less odds that someone actually hit the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right it's not a "miss" - but it's not ideal either. And maybe a paired board isn't scary - but it is dangerous and I want to know where I stand ASAP.

[QTip]

I suck at this type of math, but I'm trying to get better, and I'm trying to find out a way to calcuate this...without any real good ideas so far.

However, my intuition here (questionable) is that I don't like going for a c/r on the flop (although I probably don't c/r enough). I just think that more often than not your going to lose bets as this gets checked through...

I want to know where I'm at as well. I would bet, reraise a raise in a smaller field and see if I get capped...I know where I'm at now...

[krishanleong]

Hand reading.

Put yourself in UTG's shoes. You have a T. Are you going to raise the preflop raise and face the field with 2 on a drawless board when you have trips? Maybe if you suck.

Put yourself in MP3's shoes. You have a T. Are you going to 3-bet on a cheap street when 2 people have shown agression so far or are you going to wait until the turn to raise to maximize a monster hand?

So I cap and lead the the turn. If I'm raised, well I'm convinced that someone has a T, (and sucks because this is a crappy way to play trips) and I'll fold. I expect any 6 to call down as well as a pocket pair less than T.

Krishan

[pokerstudAA]

KrishanLeong - Expert hand analysis here.


UTG had 77 and MP3 had JJ. I got pushed off the best hand here. I figured that the pot was small and a fold was saving me some $ on what looked to be an expensive turn and river.