KK help

[Thanir]

I've been playing 25PL at PP for the last few weeks, and have done quite well playing tight and selectively aggressive.

Now they switch to the 100BB so I went to the 50PL. I've found alot of success at the lower level playing
high pocket pairs aggressive...getting my whole stack in at some point in the hand. Generally the most I lose is $20-$30 with the smaller buy-ins.

This came up tonight. SB is semi-loose, and was calling pot sized bets with oesd.

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP1 ($70.5)
MP2 ($52.45)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($64.2)</font>
CO ($80.25)
Button ($35.5)
<font color="#C00000">SB ($67.5)</font>
BB ($74.95)
UTG ($49.5)
UTG+1 ($102.85)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.50, MP1 calls $0.50, MP2 calls $0.50, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $3</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB (poster) calls $2.75, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds.

Flop: ($8) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3</font>, SB calls $3.

Turn: ($14) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $10</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $25</font>, Hero calls $15.

River: ($64) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $25</font>, Hero calls $25.

Final Pot: $114

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Kc Kh (one pair, kings).
SB has 7d 7h (three of a kind, sevens).
Outcome: SB wins $114. </font>

First off I didnt raise more pf because I wanted some action. I play very tight and I was afraid a max raise wouldve had everyone fold around. I'm assuming this was mistake 1? Should I be happy just picking up whats in the pot?

Then I know mistake #2 is at the turn. My read was AQ on him, and that he reraised me because of that. In retrospect I should seen the trips.

The river call I had to make I think because of my read and the fact that it was the end of our stacks, and im pot committed? With my turn call I figured the rest of my stack was going in. With this train of thought (as wrong as it may be) should I have reraised the turn?

Thanks for any help you can provide.

[nrinker]

pf is fine, flop is horrible. Bet the pot on the flop, things could be alot different if you did.

[jonnyUCB]

nah I like his flop play.. drags along hands that you beat. He is playing headsup afterall... this would be a much worse play with more than one opponent. I might bet a BIT more just cause of some draws that are out there but imo the mistake is on the turn. The only hand you're calling on is AQ, which wont make that play there. When someone wants to take control of the pot vs a pfr they are either A) an extremely aggressive player who knows what they're doing or B) has an extremely good hand. AQ will call u down after that turn hoping you missed AK.

[jimdmcevoy]

[ QUOTE ]
nah I like his flop play.. drags along hands that you beat

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct, hands like two spades or 89

I bet $6-$8 on the flop

[TrailofTears]

[ QUOTE ]
I've found alot of success at the lower level playing
high pocket pairs aggressive...Generally the most I lose is $20-$30 with the smaller buy-ins.


[/ QUOTE ]

This a strange way to describe your "success" at a level.

As for the hand, raise more PF. If you want more action, make more raises and people will start to call with inferior hands. Don't change your raising standards by your holdings (note: this obviously doesn't apply for re-raising). He was likely going to call anyways with 77, and the hand was going to play out the way it did regardless. I would probably end up playing it the same way, as I think folding for his turn raise would be weak-tight. However, the one thing you did not address is if he ever raised with draws, or if he always has the goods when he raises. Lots of players like him are easy to read because they call with mediocre hands, but they only raise when they hit the board hard. This is something to pay attention to, especially with the deeper stacks. Now you know, a raise from this guy means the real deal.

-Trail

[TrailofTears]

Thank you for correcting him. I am tired of people advocating the underbet so much. This is a sign of someone who doesn't see long-term, but instead doesn't want to lose action on this one hand.

[jonnyUCB]

the OP's bet still makes calling with flush draw incorrect. Furthermore you're in position the whole time: if a draw gets there you are in a much better position to fold your hand. I believe SB is much more likely to have a pair here than any other holding, maybe big cards which could be suited here, but 89? cmon.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
the OP's bet still makes calling with flush draw incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]

villain has to call 3 into a pot of 14. if can expect to win $1 more of hero's money on the times he makes the flush, he should call (also gets some more value from the fact the turn might be checked through). also, the most likely flush draw is A-high, so villain likely has an overcard as well for 3 more outs. bet around 3/4-pot.

that said, i don't really know how to play the turn. maybe this is time for a "keep-the-pot-small" check behind, even though it's scary. or maybe it's a "don't go broke with 1 pair" fold on the turn. got to admit, i'm a little baffled.

[jonnyUCB]

personally I make sure the opponent knows i mean business on the turn. I respect them when they come over the top and maybe thats weak-tight but I mark who i know to be able to make that sort of move with any hand KK beats here. He is showing willingness to play a big pot with his turn bet and his opponent is saying alright lets do it. I fold on the river if i call the turn bet.

[TrailofTears]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold on the river if i call the turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think he is going to come over the top and not bet the river? Why call if you are going to fold to a bet on the river?

[joewatch]

I think you will that in general, PL players are weaker than the NL, although NL has better implied odds and is more profitable in the long run once you get good.

When I switched from limit to NL/PL and was just learning the game, I lost a bunch playing NL, but won it all back and more playing PL. Now I'm back to NL and doing great. NL has better implied odds.

OK, regarding this hand:

Preflop - $3 (5xbb) is a perfectly respectable raise at this level. I don't there's anything wrong with this, and I would feel comfortable even making only a $2 (3xbb) raise. When your big raise gets called, the hands I would put your decent opponents on are JJ-22, AKs-ATs. Often, you will get worse.

Flop - With position, the play on this flop is flexible. If you think your opponent might have a flush draw, then you should bet the pot. If you think your opponent has anything else, it's safe to check here to try to induce a bluff on the turn. Your small bet is essentially the same as a check.

Turn - with 2 broadway cards on board and a flush draw, it's time to close things down. I would bet the pot. Your bet size is reasonable, but they don't call this pot-limit for nothing. Uh oh, you got check-raised. Now it's time to re-evaluate. Usually, a check-raise means that villain can beat TPTK hands. How big was the raise? Villain didn't raise the max, so that means he is raising for value, not to shut you out. I would have folded here, putting Villain on QTs or better.

River - that is an awful call. Villain clearly doesn't fear whatever you hold.

So you feel bad folding KK, right? The good thing about mucking is that nobody has to know. All you have to remember is that you are playing smart poker.

[jonnyUCB]

Only reason I call is if i think the bettor is testing me with his raise (a very aggro raise indeed.. they would much more likely test me by leading out). I would not likely classify a turn ch/r as such. If i do, and they value bet the river i realize i'm beat as I've passed their "test".

I ch/r a flop bet with an overpair and a ragged flop all the time vs a PFR. I give up on the turn. I apply similar logic to this situation though I would not read a turn ch/r the same as a flop ch/r.

[kurto]

"As for the hand, raise more PF. If you want more action, make more raises and people will start to call with inferior hands." Why? He got heads up. Unless he wanted to raise it to $20... his raise seemed appropriate.

I don't understand why a lot of people ask if they should raise more with their good hands. I don't think you want to vary your raised based on what you have.

[TrailofTears]

My quote:

[ QUOTE ]
Don't change your raising standards by your holdings

[/ QUOTE ]

Your quote:

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you want to vary your raised based on what you have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Problems? My point was to the oft-mentioned, "I wanted action with my KK/AA so I only raised a little. After all, I didn't want to just pick up the blinds with such a monster." This is a faulty line of thinking, and my suggestion to raise more was to be consistent with your normal raises, and that you aren't only raising PF with AA/KK/QQ/AKs. If OP wants people to call his raises, he can lower his raises (bad idea) or raise with a larger range of hands PF (good if you are capable of playing, which most any regular poster on here can.)

I think we are in agreement, but perhaps just not seeing each other's points. Please comment if there is anything else, as I think this is a good discussion.

-T

[kurto]

We are saying the same thing. My bad.

I think the only time you should raise you bets if if everyone calls every standard raise. Then you need to up the standard raise. (and, of course adjust to # of limpers.)

So many (not posters here)...
Min raise- small pp or KQ
Normal Raise - AQ, AK, 10s-Qs
REALLY HUGE RAISE (or open all in)- Aces or kings

so goofy.

[TrailofTears]

I agree. I am a very strict follower of the 4xBB+1xBB/limper. I also raise almost every time when folded to on the button. And I raise from LP with a decent amount of hands. This is all for 6max games, to be clear.

Yesterday, though, with the blind change at party, everyone was calling every raise because it was still cheaper than the old blinds, so I actually upped it to 5xBB+ for every raise (I know, woooooo...)

-T