Who is the most overated athlete of all time?

[Jack of Arcades]

Just because you're willfully ignorant doesn't mean you're right.

[jesusarenque]

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Yes it does. You are wrong. There are statistics now that adjust for era, ballpark, and many other variables. Just because you are ignorant of them does not mean they don't exist.

Educate yourself:

www.baseballprospectus.com (http://www.baseballprospectus.com)
www.baseball-reference.com (http://www.baseball-reference.com)

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I could artificially manipulate a way to compare you and a gopher that would show you were smarter, but it still isn't so.

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Haha. Ok. You are right. Mark Lemke&gt;Babe Ruth. Man, you sure are smart. I'm sure everyone is amazed by your knowledge of baseball.

[Jack of Arcades]

We can't prove the theory of gravity, either.

[jakethebake]

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Yes it does. You are wrong. There are statistics now that adjust for era, ballpark, and many other variables. Just because you are ignorant of them does not mean they don't exist.

Educate yourself:

www.baseballprospectus.com (http://www.baseballprospectus.com)
www.baseball-reference.com (http://www.baseball-reference.com)

[/ QUOTE ]

I could artificially manipulate a way to compare you and a gopher that would show you were smarter, but it still isn't so.

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Haha. Ok. You are right. Mark Lemke&gt;Babe Ruth. Man, you sure are smart. I'm sure everyone is amazed by your knowledge of baseball.

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I never said anything about Mark Lemke? WTF?

[jakethebake]

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Just because you're willfully ignorant doesn't mean you're right.

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I'm not ignorant. I understand what you're doing, but you're still only comparing the stats they earned within the confines of their own era. But taking how they scored relative to others within their own era and comparing it still doesn't tell you how they'd score if playing in the same era.

edit: and make all the field size adjustments, etc. you want to. That's just guesswork.

[Jack of Arcades]

But we aren't talking about their skill. We're talking about their value.

[hoyaboy1]

There are 2 important points here, jake:

1 - You are having a stupid semantic argument about whether it is possible to prove anything.

2 - You know very little about statistics and less about modern baseball statistics.

[jakethebake]

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But we aren't talking about their skill. We're talking about their value.

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Value? wtf are you talking about?

[jakethebake]

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There are 2 important points here, jake:

1 - You are having a stupid semantic argument about whether it is possible to prove anything.

2 - You know very little about statistics and less about modern baseball statistics.

[/ QUOTE ]
1 - Ssshhhhhhh. I'm having fun arguing with these guys.

2 - Actually I do know something about statistics. I use them fairly heavily in my job. But, yea I admit I'm not a huge baseball stats guy. Not that one has anything at all to do with the other. No one uses actual stastical tools when talking about sports stats.

[astroglide]

for all time i'll go with hercules

[riffraff]

how about Ricky Williams.

He's probably been mentioned before but what the hell.

[jesusarenque]

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No one uses actual stastical tools when talking about sports stats.

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Wrong.

www.baseballprospectus.com (http://www.baseballprospectus.com)

[Jack of Arcades]

Skill is what a person would do free of context given a sufficient sample size. Value is what someone actually accomplished once you adjust for context.

Think of it in poker terms. Say you are a true 1.5 BB/100 player at the Party 15/30. Over hundreds of thousands of hands you might not come within .5 BB/100 of this mark.

This is all theoretical of course. As it is nearly impossible to know a true winrate, it's nearly impossible to know a true talent level, in part because of the huge sample size needed, and also because it changes more or less with every hand you play.

[Jack of Arcades]

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No one uses actual stastical tools when talking about sports stats.

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I'd be interested to know what statistical tools you're talking about. Sabermetrics is filled with people with statistical backgrounds. Most of the head figures don't have one (Bill James, our own Nate Silver, many others), but there're only in the foreground because of their supreme writing skill.

[jakethebake]

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This is all theoretical of course. As it is nearly impossible to know a true winrate, it's nearly impossible to know a true talent level, in part because of the huge sample size needed, and also because it changes more or less with every hand you play.

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Thank you. That was my point.

[jakethebake]

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No one uses actual stastical tools when talking about sports stats.

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Wrong.

www.baseballprospectus.com (http://www.baseballprospectus.com)

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Fine. Let me rephrase: In general, when people are talking about baseball "stats" they're really just referring to data. But if you really understand statistical tools, then you realize they rarely actually prove anything. All they really do is give you a framework in which to make reasonable guesses.

[Jack of Arcades]

Fine, but ignoring work in baseball statistics because you don't believe it "proves" anything is worse than blindly believing anything.

There are plenty of things we can't know for certain. That doesn't mean we should not use all we can to get a very clear picture and use that.

[Nottom]

I think Tyson is a good pick, but I think its fair to say that in his case its mostly the general public who overrates him and not so much people who really know anything about boxing.

[Nottom]

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Wasn't Sam Bowie drafted ahead of Jordan?

I nominate Sam Bowie.

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So was Danny Ferry, and he sucked balls

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Except it was actually Hakeem Olajuwon and I hear he was pretty good.

[Nottom]

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everyone in the U.S. gets their panties all in a bunch when you say anything about Lance, seriously, he rides a [censored] bike. He even says that he isn't the greatest athlete, says he can't throw a football, shoot a basketball, or even hit a baseball, but for some reason 90% of AMerica has his dick in their mouth because he has won some stupid European sporting event. [censored] you guys. Lance is the best cyclist ever, thats it.

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That really about all anyone ever gives him credit for. I think he may be a little overrated, but hes not at the top of many people's list for greatest athlete ever and certainly isn't the most overrated.

By your arguement I would say its Jack Nicklaus, because my old roommate could probably beat him (in his prime) at most sports that weren't golf.

[Nottom]

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Underrated (no order)
Vijay Singh
Barry Bonds


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I don't see how Bonds can possibly be underrated.

[Nottom]

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Vick, at this point, is overrated. Highly.

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Please show me evidence or him being rated as even a top 5 QB in the NFL by any reputable source.

Overhyped != Overrated.

[jesusarenque]

Michael Jordan is overrated. Well, he was when he was playing, but I suppose the hype has calmed down since then.

[davelin]

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Michael Jordan is overrated. Well, he was when he was playing, but I suppose the hype has calmed down since then.

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Ummmm...no

[hawkeye]

Chuck Long followed by Ryan Leaf followed by Cade McNown followed by Pierre Pierce. Where do arrests for sexual assault go on your Player Bio sheet anyways? Career highlights?

[Nottom]

Ah, I forgot the obvious choice ... Secretariat.

He was a horse for god's sake.

[jesusarenque]

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Michael Jordan is overrated. Well, he was when he was playing, but I suppose the hype has calmed down since then.

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Ummmm...no

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Do don't agree that the hype has died down since his retirement?

[Jack of Arcades]

Because people don't realize how good he was in the 90s.

[davelin]

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Michael Jordan is overrated. Well, he was when he was playing, but I suppose the hype has calmed down since then.

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Ummmm...no

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Do don't agree that the hype has died down since his retirement?

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I agree with that part, not your first assertion.

[jesusarenque]

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Michael Jordan is overrated. Well, he was when he was playing, but I suppose the hype has calmed down since then.

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Ummmm...no

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When he was playing many people claimed he was the greatest athlete ever. He wasn't even close to being the greatest basketball player ever. He was great, but he also had the good fortune of being the top NBA player when the NBA was at the peak of its popularity. Again, MJ was great, but not the best ever.

Do don't agree that the hype has died down since his retirement?

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I agree with that part, not your first assertion.

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[SinCityGuy]

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for all time i'll go with hercules

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Union Cane was far more overrated than Hercules.

[Clarkmeister]

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Underrated (no order)
Vijay Singh
Barry Bonds


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I don't see how Bonds can possibly be underrated.

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Because I think most people have no clue just how unbelievable his stats have been the last 5 years. Dude would have won the triple crown last year had he "only" been walked 150 times.

[Clarkmeister]

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Michael Jordan is overrated. Well, he was when he was playing, but I suppose the hype has calmed down since then.

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I submit that it's impossible for the best ever at *anything* to be overrated.

[Clarkmeister]

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Ah, I forgot the obvious choice ... Secretariat.

He was a horse for god's sake.

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Aside from the fact that he's a horse, it's still amazing to look back at this horse's accomplishments. Unreal.

I'd submit that Dr. Fager is underrated as most casual fans have no clue how aweseome he was.

[SinCityGuy]

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Michael Jordan is overrated. Well, he was when he was playing, but I suppose the hype has calmed down since then.

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I submit that it's impossible for the best ever at *anything* to be overrated.

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Q: Who is the only person who consistently held Michael Jordan under 20 points?

A: Dean Smith. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[deacsoft]

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Michael Jordan is overrated.

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Possibly the worst possible answer to this question.

[Jman28]

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In football, I would say Ray Lewis.
This convict couldn't carry LT's jockstrap if he tried.

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I'm gonna have to strongly disagree. Ray deserves all the respect he gets (as a football player).

[tripemonkey]

Shaquille O'Neal has got to be one of the most overrated athletes of all time.

His one skill is being big. And, insofar as that is a skill, he's pretty good. However, if the NBA called him on half of the traveling and offensive fouls of which he was guilty, he would hardly see any playing time. The NBA won't do that though, because he's good at selling Nestle Krunch bars, and at selling the NBA. Let the truth be told, my ass.

He's not a good shooter, passer, dribbler, or thinker. He dribbles and moves "pretty well for a guy his size". But you shouldn't get credit for being great simply because you do something pretty well for your size.

How could you shut Shaq down? Easy, guard him with any 3rd string NFL offensive lineman; I don't give a damn if the guy knows anything about basketball. Shaq would be totally shut down if he couldn't use his huge, blubbery, fat ass to jack hammer his way into the key.

Turn the tables if you'd like. How would Shaq do in the NFL? Horribly. You don't get to play in the NFL by moving "pretty well for your size".

[thatpfunk]

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Shaquille O'Neal has got to be one of the most overrated athletes of all time.

His one skill is being big. And, insofar as that is a skill, he's pretty good. However, if the NBA called him on half of the traveling and offensive fouls of which he was guilty, he would hardly see any playing time. The NBA won't do that though, because he's good at selling Nestle Krunch bars, and at selling the NBA. Let the truth be told, my ass.

He's not a good shooter, passer, dribbler, or thinker. He dribbles and moves "pretty well for a guy his size". But you shouldn't get credit for being great simply because you do something pretty well for your size.

How could you shut Shaq down? Easy, guard him with any 3rd string NFL offensive lineman; I don't give a damn if the guy knows anything about basketball. Shaq would be totally shut down if he couldn't use his huge, blubbery, fat ass to jack hammer his way into the key.

Turn the tables if you'd like. How would Shaq do in the NFL? Horribly. You don't get to play in the NFL by moving "pretty well for your size".

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Next time just type : "I know nothing about basketball." It is fewer words and less for us to read.

[jakethebake]

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I think Tyson is a good pick, but I think its fair to say that in his case its mostly the general public who overrates him and not so much people who really know anything about boxing.

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Actually it's the opposite.

[Clarkmeister]

Wow, you really know zilch about basketball.

[tripemonkey]

Funny.

For one thing, there's gotten to be a pretty big difference between "basketball" and "NBA". But I know plenty about both. Shaq's good at actual basketball the way George W. is good at actually being smart.

Second, did you have a specific objection? Or do you just think that the Big Aristotle is good at shooting, passing, dribbling, and thinking?

In case you're interested, here is a good article posted a few years ago by another guy who could have typed "I know nothing about basketball," but didn't.

Truth about Shaq (http://espn.go.com/page2/s/webb/020612.html)

[davelin]

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Second, did you have a specific objection? Or do you just think that the Big Aristotle is good at shooting, passing, dribbling, and thinking?

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I don't think anyone ever asserted that he had the skills of a point guard. Everyone pretty much agrees that he's pretty great at what he does, which is use his height and size to the best of his ability. You seem to think that anyone 7'2" and 300+ lbs can dominate the NBA. They can't.

(BTW, his passing out of the double-team in the post isn't bad at all).

In asserting that he's overrated, you're attributing that people have deemed certain skills on him. They're not.

[3rdEye]

Without a doubt: MICHAEL VICK.

[tripemonkey]

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I don't think anyone ever asserted that he had the skills of a point guard.

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Many people have, including Shaq himself. Always claiming that he could do so much more than we saw on the court, if only Jackson would give him permission.

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Everyone pretty much agrees that he's pretty great at what he does, which is use his height and size to the best of his ability.

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I'm not disputing that he uses his height and size to the best of his ability. I'm saying that his doing so is a foul and/or traveling violation, according to the rulebook, the vast majority of the time.

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You seem to think that anyone 7'2" and 300+ lbs can dominate the NBA.

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I don't know how I "seem" to do that. The fact is, if the rules had been called the same for him as they are for Shaq, Mark Eaton could have been an offensive juggernaut.

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(BTW, his passing out of the double-team in the post isn't bad at all).


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Well, he has more career turnovers per game (almost 3) than any other starting center I can think of. And, while I think his skills - barring his "size skill" - are pretty bad, this isn't even about whether he is bad or good. This is about whether he is overrated, which he is by a damn site.

[jesusarenque]

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Michael Jordan is overrated. Well, he was when he was playing, but I suppose the hype has calmed down since then.

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I submit that it's impossible for the best ever at *anything* to be overrated.

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Michael Jordan is not the best ever at anything.

[jakethebake]

I'm going withe entire 2004 Summer U.S. Olympic Swim Team.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/pwarcham/OOTtub.jpg

[Clarkmeister]

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Michael Jordan is overrated. Well, he was when he was playing, but I suppose the hype has calmed down since then.

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I submit that it's impossible for the best ever at *anything* to be overrated.

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Michael Jordan is not the best ever at anything.

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I'm pretty sure he's at least the best ever Bulls player. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[jesusarenque]

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Michael Jordan is overrated. Well, he was when he was playing, but I suppose the hype has calmed down since then.

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I submit that it's impossible for the best ever at *anything* to be overrated.

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Michael Jordan is not the best ever at anything.

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I'm pretty sure he's at least the best ever Bulls player. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

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Nah. Crash Davis is the best Bull of them all.

[BottlesOf]

m

[davelin]

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Michael Jordan is overrated. Well, he was when he was playing, but I suppose the hype has calmed down since then.

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I submit that it's impossible for the best ever at *anything* to be overrated.

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Michael Jordan is not the best ever at anything.

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Where does MJ rank on your list of basketball players.

[davelin]

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I don't think anyone ever asserted that he had the skills of a point guard.

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Many people have, including Shaq himself. Always claiming that he could do so much more than we saw on the court, if only Jackson would give him permission.


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Show me where it says Shaq thinks he should bring up the ball and drain the 3?


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Everyone pretty much agrees that he's pretty great at what he does, which is use his height and size to the best of his ability.

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I'm not disputing that he uses his height and size to the best of his ability. I'm saying that his doing so is a foul and/or traveling violation, according to the rulebook, the vast majority of the time.

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You seem to think that anyone 7'2" and 300+ lbs can dominate the NBA.

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I don't know how I "seem" to do that. The fact is, if the rules had been called the same for him as they are for Shaq, Mark Eaton could have been an offensive juggernaut.

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You serious about this? Mark Eaton is your argument? MJ got calls, Kareem got calls, Kobe Bryant gets calls, Bird got calls, Magic got calls, Isiah got calls. You're saying Dan Dickau could dominate the league if he got the calls Allen Iverson gets?

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(BTW, his passing out of the double-team in the post isn't bad at all).


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Well, he has more career turnovers per game (almost 3) than any other starting center I can think of. And, while I think his skills - barring his "size skill" - are pretty bad, this isn't even about whether he is bad or good. This is about whether he is overrated, which he is by a damn site.

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Well you're probably right about the turnovers. But I was just asserting that you said he was overrated because he wasn't an excellent passer, dribbler and shooter and I just declared that was nonsense.

I guess overrated is just subjective. If you think Shaq has been declared the god of basketball then yes that's overrated. But I see that most of the media seems to claim that he's a great center that uses his size and height advantage to the best of his abilities mixed in with some athletics and good footwork. And to that I agree.