I don't fold KK preflop

[TheWorstPlayer]

Standard? Does anyone do anything differently?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">SB ($73.1)</font>
BB ($98.15)
UTG ($24.5)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($26.8)</font>
Button ($21.05)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB (poster) raises to $6</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $4.

Flop: ($12.50) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $5</font>, Hero calls $5.

Turn: ($22.50) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $15, Hero raises to $15.80 (All-in), SB calls $0.80.</font>

River: ($38.30) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: $38.30

[thatpfunk]

ya sure, push preflop. you get enough pocket pair and Ax-AK calls.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Really? Even with position?

[kylma]

The reason I would like to reraise is your stack size.. You are practically seeing the river no matter what flops.. He, on the other hand, could still (with you just calling preflop) get away with AK and that kind of hands if he decides to, on the flop.. By reraising you "force" him to call your flop bet, no matter what the flop is like, I think.

[tbach24]

I like it, with him re-raising its either AK, AA-JJ (probably) and obviously he either has you drawing to two outs, or is drawing very slim. He won't go to the felt with AK, but might fire out another bullet on 4th street. Well played.

[AncientPC]

I don't mind how this was played, especially if SB is aggro post-flop.

[DrPublo]

All in on the flop. Stack size is perfect.

You win here, right?

The Doc

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]
Really? Even with position?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think you will get a call, of course. I don't dislike the way you played the hand, I just think it makes it much more simple to push preflop.

Also, lets pretend Villian has TT or JJ. I would estimate you will get called 50% of the time by random players holding those hands. If you decide to play cards there are 10-14 cards that potentially kill your action. I'm sure someone can figure the math on that. Add that with the random kooks who call with Ax and PP's, i think theres no need to get tricky.

I, of course, waver on this everytime its folded or I get shown AA, but I haven't encountered any evidence to make me think its necessary to mess around.

Edited to add last paragraph.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Really? Even with position?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think you will get a call, of course. I don't dislike the way you played the hand, I just think it makes it much more simple to push preflop.

Also, lets pretend Villian has TT or JJ. I would estimate you will get called 50% of the time by random players holding those hands. If you decide to play cards there are 10-14 cards that potentially kill your action. I'm sure someone can figure the math on that. Add that with the random kooks who call with Ax and PP's, i think theres no need to get tricky.

I, of course, waver on this everytime its folded or I get shown AA, but I haven't encountered any evidence to make me think its necessary to mess around.

Edited to add last paragraph.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have good points here. However, you'll lose hands like AJ and AQ that would've gone broke on a J-high or Q-high flop but won't call your preflop reraise. At these limits, however, playing KK fast preflop is very rarely a mistake.

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]
You have good points here. However, you'll lose hands like AJ and AQ that would've gone broke on a J-high or Q-high flop but won't call your preflop reraise. At these limits, however, playing KK fast preflop is very rarely a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are we playing the same game /images/graemlins/tongue.gif ?

In all seriousness, I don't see alot of reraises with AJ. I see some with AQ. And those players are generally the type that will make this call.

[Ghazban]

Oops, you're right. I misread the preflop action. I agree completely with your statement:

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see alot of reraises with AJ. I see some with AQ. And those players are generally the type that will make this call.

[/ QUOTE ]

[NiceCatch]

I can see only four possible hands here for the villain: AA, KK, QQ, JJ. TT is an outside possibility, but is a reraise with TT common at this level?

Also, I would think AA is just as likely to just call on the preflop. So I would tend to think you're up against QQ or JJ. Those agree with the flop and turn bets as well (does AK bet $15 on the turn? Probably not...).

So you won, right?

[theredpill5]

Why do you only have $26 on a $50 max buy-in ? Don't you keep it filled for hands like these ?

[istewart]

$25NL.

[Borno]

PF I just call the blind, when sb raises I push.

My reasoning is that hands like KK are stong enough on their own to win. Opening 4x BB with no limpers you stand to gain very little on this rare hand in the long run. If you limp and push, or limp and raise the pot your opponent may think your just trying to push him off his SB. You have position here and you should be taking advantage of it.

You'll make more money like this than if you make $2 and then commit to bets on the flop. If you get called once in a few times its worth it, if you get folds all around you stand to make just as much as if you raise 4xBB and get people to fold.

On the flop I would be cautious as the 10 hit. but with a $5 bet into a $15 pot I reraise to $10 in a $25 max game. this is a sizeable amount of money for this game and will give you the pot right away if he folds, let you know if he has 10s if he raises, and if he calls, he's on a flush draw, AK or AA through JJ.

If he bets that raggedy turn I pull the trigger again.

Can someone let me know what they think of this?

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]
Can someone let me know what they think of this?

[/ QUOTE ]
Post less, read more.

[Borno]

why do you say that man. Give me some feedback. that was the dirtiest reply ever.

[thatpfunk]

Your post demonstrated a fundamental lack of understanding the game.

It was not a mean post, but a good recomendation. Post hands and you'll learn a lot.

[Borno]

can you please explain what is wrong with it, so I can understand this play

[Borno]

can someone explain why my logic is all off here?

is it because raising his bet would give him odds for the flush draw?

[soah]

I may push on the flop but your line is fine too depending on what you read his weak bet to mean. There's no need to push preflop, although at this level I guess most opponents would call it almost all of the time.

[NiceCatch]

Gosh I don't like any of these plays at all. First of all, with KK UTG+1, you have no way of knowing the SB will raise. SB acts AFTER you! So I think a raise is a good idea. I also like the call of the reraise... you just don't lay down kings in this situation. I think we can all agree on that.

On the flop, you pretty much have to assume the guy is not on a flush draw. As I said before, a post-flop reraise really implies QQ or JJ to me; I don't see any other hand re-raising, except POSSIBLY TT... And if he flopped a set on you, you're just out of luck.

I liked the way Hero played the hand. Got the most out of it. I think the flop call was definitely +EV.

[thatpfunk]

Briefly, because I am doing some school stuff...

You advocate not raising because you believe people might not call. This is incorrect. You raise because you have the best hand. If they fold, not a big deal.

KK does stand to make a lot of money when you raise preflop. Its not that rare of a hand.

Then you worry because a T hit when Hero has an overpair. That doesn't make much sense. /images/graemlins/confused.gif Then, after you say you are worried, you say to pull the trigger on the turn, which is contradictory.


Post some hands and explain your thought process. People will be happy to give you advice. If we're dicks, ignore us, there are plenty who will be nice.

[Borno]

My thought process, although likely useless:


I say limp with the KK because you are 1st to enter. If you get called you can still push the flop, if you really dont like it you can fold.

If you get raised pf, you can push and be more likely to get a call.

If you raise 1st to enter people fold lots... any words to settle my angst?

Please evaluate what I am saying.

[kurto]

Not useless... I think misguided.

"I say limp with the KK because you are 1st to enter." That makes no sense. You should raise with KK where ever you are.

"If you get called you can still push the flop" You don't want 8 other people limping in with speculative hands. Let people limp in then pushing on the flop is just asking to give your money away. I can't tell you the number of times someone lets me in for free with a 3-8os in the bb, I hit 2 pair and take their stack because they have Aces. A simple raise preflop and I would have been out. But instead, they literally handed me their stack without a fight.

"if you really dont like it you can fold." Thus throwing away a great hand you called 'rare.'

"If you get raised pf, you can push and be more likely to get a call." And if you don't get raised, you may have just lost a preflop monster.

"If you raise 1st to enter people fold lots... " 1) Very rarely do I see everyone fold to 1 standard raise. I don't know where you're playing (2) if everyone folds.. you won the blinds (3) Any PP plays better the less players in the hand... by not raising and inducing some folds, you're helping them.

[joewatch]

I think this argument about how to play KK preflop is degenerating a bit. Anyway, here's my 2 cents: every major book I've read on NLHE (Ciaffone, Harrington, McEvoy/Cloutier) says this - you should almost always raise preflop with KK and AA, but occasionally call to vary your play. When you play this way, you will maximize your profits.

[NiceCatch]

I think there are two situations where slowplaying KK preflop shorthanded, in early position, is acceptable. The first is when a maniac is sitting at the table, and raising all types of crap on a regular basis. Then you let him do your betting for you. The other is when you are in the BB, and everyone but the SB has folded. Then I'd at least delay raising until the flop. In a heads up situation, I'll play Aces and Kings a little slower, and TT, JJ, and QQ a little faster.

Otherwise, the idea behind raising a strong hand preflop is simple: you want to get as much money into the middle as possible when you have the best of it. With KK preflop, you almost surely have the best of it. You want to play for a big pot, and to do that you need to start elevating the pot. That being said, you will induce alot of folds... but you will also have your KK busted much less frequently. And every once in a while, you will drag a huge pot.

Another thing the preflop raise does is give you some information when the flop comes. People are USUALLY not going to call a 4xBB raise with J8 or J3, so if a J83 flop comes, you know you're protected from someone hitting a silly two pair. Essentially what the raise helped accomplish was narrow down the number of boards that scare you (pretty much to a board with an ace, two queens, two jacks, etc.).

BTW thatpfunk... please explain your own line of thought, or any disagreement you might have with someone else's. "Post less, read more" is not very informative.

[kurto]

"I think there are two situations where slowplaying KK preflop shorthanded, in early position, is acceptable. The first is when a maniac is sitting at the table, and raising all types of crap on a regular basis." I have no problem with this. Though you're giving the exceptions. At a full table from 1st position (especially if its passive), I think limping is terrible. (if I know that there'll be a raise, limping may be acceptable... but at the low limits, so many pots are limped all around, its not worth risking it)

The "silly 2 pair" part of your post I think is the key to it. The more limpers, the more likely your pocket kings will need improvement.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Nice post. Just for the record, though, I think there is something a little wrong with you sitting in the kiddie pool with soah. But whatever you guys are into is fine with me. Anyways, about the hand: Yes, I won. He had JJ. I wasn't sure whether I should have pushed on the flop and that was my main question in this hand. I decided not to because I thought it almost looked like a set and someone might get away even with an overpair (unlikely, but I didn't want to take the risk.) Also, I thought he might have AK and try to bully the turn. Since I had position, I knew I could just push on the turn if he checked it to me so no fear of giving an ace TWO free cards. And I wasn't worried about TT because I can't remember the last time I saw someone re-raise that. I have DEFINITELY seen J9o re-raised more recently than TT. If he has aces, I'm going broke so I wasn't worried about that either. And I didn't think he had anything that would give him a flush draw except possibly for AKs (don't remember if I had the K of the suit, I guess I should have checked but I didn't.)

I think that pushing preflop is a mistake for two reasons:
1. People will re-raise trash and then push the flop. I haven't played with this guy long so I had no idea if he were one of those maniacs, but if so I didn't want to scare him off. Some people also will re-raise stuff like AQ which I didn't want him to get away from. I at least wanted to get another flop bet out of him, since I had position.
2. I was planning on playing at this table for a while. I was planning on having a big stack. At a later point, I could see myself raising with a hand like TT and just calling a re-raise (if stacks are deep enough for set value to still apply). I didn't want people to know that I didn't have aces or kings when I did that. IMO, even at NL25 these things do get noticed when you bust someone with KK and you didn't put in that third bet. Makes people a little more wary of you which can give you a free look at a turn card or get you priced in for a draw or whatever. I think it is a (minor) consideration here.

Cheers!

[NiceCatch]

Fellas, one thing I'm kind of getting from reading the posts is that most people are approaching the KK situation as if they were at a full table. The OP was sitting at a 6max with 5 players. This does factor into how to play your kings preflop. In this particular situation, however, you have to raise.

Borno, if you only raise AA and KK before the flop, clearly you will get little action on them (assuming your opponents are at least semi-conscious). At a 6max table, if all you are raising is AA and KK, you're probably playing much too passively pre-flop. You want to raise hands such as AK, AQ, even AJ, KQ, higher suited connectors in position (i.e. CO or Button). That way you won't have to worry about getting no action on your AA and KK. Try experimenting with this type of aggressiveness a bit.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Yes, this is a good point that I was going to mention. I'm not worried about not getting action on my kings because I am raising enough that if my raises are getting too much respect, people are just going to let me run them over. I'd much rather just start raising 87s because my raises aren't getting respect rather than start limping KK.

[Lawrence Ng]

Hi guys,

Here is where Pokertracker/PV comes in quite handy for me. If I have a good number of hands, I have stats on VPIP/PFR% on the player. Yes, I did lay down KK once when I made a 3x BB raise and then this 13/3 player re-raised me for another 15x. I was pretty sure he had AA, so I folded my kings. I never found out of course, but felt confident enough to do it. Later I went back to PT and searched through the player's hands and did notice his re-raising standard was quite high (QQ-AA)

Against most opponents (who usually have 30-90 VPIP with over 10 PFR%) I'm going to push them pre-flop provided they are most likely going to be pot committed anyways.

The nature of all-in committment pre-flop also depends on the size of the stacks here. Hero has about 51 BB and our villain has about 146 BB. So our hero is somewhat medium stacked. I would be 50/50 about shoving all-in pre-flop with another re-raise, but waiting for the flop to go all-in isn't a bad idea either.

Lawrence

[Wayfare]

[ QUOTE ]
Your post demonstrated a fundamental lack of understanding the game.


[/ QUOTE ]

So do yours...


IMO hero played it perfectly.

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]
So do yours...



[/ QUOTE ]

Really?

I believe I detailed exactly why pushing is completely acceptable. If you actually read, I said Hero played it fine.

I would love for you to explain where a fundamental flaw in my thinking is...