For those who don't frequent the "General" forum

[kenberman]

This (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1767198&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=40#Post1774457) is a great thread currently being discussed. It concerns VPIP, and the "tightness is next to godliness" gospel that tends to dominate 2+2.

As a 21% VPIP player, I've always thought that 15% players were passing up loads on profitable opportunities. Nate Tha Great gives evidence to support this, much better than I can /images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

The point of this post isn't to say that you should have a VPIP of 15, or 18, or 21, or any other number. The point is that to earn maximum profits, you need to be able to recognize profitable situations when they arise, and take advantage of them.

I still think that beginners are best off starting tight. However, adding marginal hands in certain situations can/will increase your winrate.

[guitarhero14]

Thank you! I dont visit the general forum much, now I will. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[gvibes]

Are there any posts on recommendations to loosen up play?

I've only played ~ 7k hands with PT (I know, sample size...), but my VPIP has stayed at ~16.5 +/-.3 pretty much the entire time, and I'd like to play a few more hands.

Trying to open up my game:
- I think I'm too weak in the blinds against raises, particularly when the pot is multiway.
- I'm trying to limp with Axs earlier
- I'm limping with Kxs after several limpers, with passive blinds, on the CO and button
- playing more SC and suited 1-gappers

EDIT:
The following are recommendations posted by Nate in a follow-up post:
[ QUOTE ]

The first areas specifically where I'd tell a tightie to loosen up are, probably in this order:

1) Defending your blinds more, especially against steal raises.

2) Overlimping with more marginal hands in the Button or CO.

3) Stealing more or isolating limpers more with marginal hands in the Button or CO.

4) Limping, overlimping, or raising more with good suited hands and small-medium pairs in early position.


[/ QUOTE ]

[KingOtter]

I think what he is saying really boils down to the fact that poker is very situational.

So much depends on your position, your opponents, your table-image, overall table aggression, overall table tightness/looseness, etc.

Once you learn to play situationally, rather than from a opening hands chart, you play better. You recognize what is a +EV situation and what may be a bad idea better.

KO

[kapw7]

Tightness seems to be a god in this forum. (Look at previous post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=1732424&f part=&PHPSESSID=) ) I liked the Pokertracker factor concept. Poeple trying to lower their VPIP and forgetting to improve their game. Or isn't that the same thing?

I try to play as loose or as tight depending on the table. And i've been profitable in loose and tight tables. But I guess I am just running well. Look at pokertracker and check how profitable "rocks" are. I don't have the perfect sample and I am not 100% sure that I am correct. But then I am not a rock and I am not looking for 100% situations in poker.

[bd8802]

I am starting to buy into the SSHE philosophy that the EV of pre-flop play is marginal compared to expert post-flop play. As long as you do not make huge mistakes. I also think that 15% - 21% range deals more with the table read that you have made than a set number that you always want to hit. If you have a passive table and you and limp in with marginal hand for one bet, then there could very well be an +EV. But this is the case only if you are a good post-flop player.

People that are starting out, I think that being tighter is better pre-flop. It gives them a good starting point to develop a good post-flop game. They can -- and should -- expand their starting hands as they are more comfortable in situations and have a better post-flop game.

[jcolter]

I think playing multiple tables has alot to do with why many of us play tighter than optimal. Honestly, playing three tables I have a hard time learning just about anything about the betting patterns,or thought processes of my opponents.

If you expand this to eight tables, I can not imagine how one could play any other way then tight. There just is not time to absorb the relavent information that could justify playing more marginal hands.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
I think playing multiple tables has alot to do with why many of us play tighter than optimal. Honestly, playing three tables I have a hard time learning just about anything about the betting patterns,or thought processes of my opponents.

If you expand this to eight tables, I can not imagine how one could play any other way then tight. There just is not time to absorb the relavent information that could justify playing more marginal hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bingo! I find myself automucking hands I would consider if single-tabling... like KTo in LP. This is a function of my playing four tables.

I personally am comfortable with my preflop style. I will keep it.

[kapw7]

So this way you accept that you will be playing micro for the rest of your life. Since you don't care to improve your game. Same dillemma applies to all micro-limit multi-tablers

[Bulbarainey]

[ QUOTE ]
So this way you accept that you will be playing micro for the rest of your life. Since you don't care to improve your game. Same dillemma applies to all micro-limit multi-tablers

[/ QUOTE ]

it does become a dillemma... the max ive done is 5 tables, 4 PP and one pacific on the lappy, and i just cant play as well per hand. However, 4 seems just right for me, and my VPIP is 19.96 with not enough of a sample size to really know... but i think the point is that every player has to find the right combination: how many tables can you play at your best or at least very close to it? however, the idea of playing 50c/1$ 16 tables for a living on an LCDTV in india sounds enticing sometimes

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
So this way you accept that you will be playing micro for the rest of your life.

[/ QUOTE ] Negative. Poster's current playing style selections do not preclude him from changing later or even switching back and forth.
[ QUOTE ]
Since you don't care to improve your game.

[/ QUOTE ]Unrelated conclusion lacking reasonable correlation to referenced statements or other substantiation.

[ QUOTE ]
Same dillemma applies to all micro-limit multi-tablers

[/ QUOTE ]Generalization of all players absent any hard and credible evidence. Please document and/or substantiate this comment. Or did you mean it to be an opinion?

[milesdyson]

Completely unnecessary verbosity, dude.

[TomBrooks]

Disagree. I think it is important to affirm that people have choices and to highlight the typical erroneous logic which usually accompanies attempts to manipulate one into conforming with some arbitrary dogma. And I was very succinct. =TomBk

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So this way you accept that you will be playing micro for the rest of your life.

[/ QUOTE ] Negative. Poster's current playing style selections do not preclude him from changing later or even switching back and forth.
[ QUOTE ]
Since you don't care to improve your game.

[/ QUOTE ]Unrelated conclusion lacking reasonable correlation to referenced statements or other substantiation.

[ QUOTE ]
Same dillemma applies to all micro-limit multi-tablers

[/ QUOTE ]Generalization of all players absent any hard and credible evidence. Please document and/or substantiate this comment. Or did you mean it to be an opinion?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the poster could have phrased his post a bit better, but, in general, I agree with this statement:

Those who effectively 4 table micro-limits, or small stakes games, are probably maximizing the profit they can currently extract from poker, but are probably not learning as much about poker, and improving their game, as those who single table and really pay attention to that one table.

[Absolution]

I guess I disagree here for micro limits. There is more to good post flop play than good reads, especially at micro where most are loose passive anyway. I think as long as you don't miss value bets and odds calls with these marginal hands, and are playing them in the right situations, you'll do fine.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
Those who effectively 4 table micro-limits, or small stakes games, are probably maximizing the profit they can currently extract from poker, but are probably not learning as much about poker, and improving their game, as those who single table and really pay attention to that one table.

[/ QUOTE ]Ah, I see what you mean and how kapw7's comments may be closer to that than what I originally gleaned. =TomBk

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
So this way you accept that you will be playing micro for the rest of your life. Since you don't care to improve your game. Same dillemma applies to all micro-limit multi-tablers

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
kapw7
stranger


Reged: 01/17/05
Posts: 13

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for sharing. You are obviously an expert.

[KaiShin]

You shouldn't make assumptions on people's knowledge of the game or of anything based on their reg date or postcount.

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
You shouldn't make assumptions on people's knowledge of the game or of anything

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
you accept that you will be playing micro for the rest of your life

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
you don't care to improve your game

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Same dillemma applies to all micro-limit multi-tablers

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused. Who is making assumptions about whose knowledge of the game here?

[Greg J]

Point taken. He was just being a jerk. I love his assumption that I obviously don't care about improving my game and playing micros the rest of my life. I agree I pass up some +EV situations sometimes, but my style playing one table greatly differs from playing 4.

I personally don't think the biggest issue with us is that we play too few hands, but instead don't play optimally postflop and don't play beyond ABC poker -- that is on the next level where you change gears to keep opponents off balance. This is much more important that adding a few points to vpip in one's development as a poker player. Period. The poster I responded too obviously did not think about this or think to ask. Maybe I could have enlightened him, but since he felt like like being a jerk I thought I should respond in kind. Maybe I should have taken the higher road, but I tend not to have intelligent discourses with people unless they are willing to engage me in intelligent discourse as well. Plus, being a jerk makes me feel better sometimes. No excuses there.

[hate]

I don't know if you noticed duder, but 1-tabling is pretty goddamn boring.

[KaiShin]

You're right, the original poster was making assumptions about people that multi micro limits as well, and that was also wrong.

[Greg J]

Yeah but the guy that hits back is always the one that draws the blame first. It's okay I'll live /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sy_or_bust]

There was a pokertracker statistics thread a while back that was pretty instructive also. Everyone compiled their winningest player-types from large samples in PT, and it basically boiled down to $$ correlating to postflop aggression and not VP$IP. If I remember correctly, the LP-A Elephants, at 20-40%+ VP$IP, were generally among the most profitable players over a significant number of hands.

Point being, if you're playing passively, even marginally so, you're certainly leaving money on the table.

[kapw7]

Thank you. That's exactly what I was trying to say. I have to apologise to Tom for my poor wording. But then, I am Greek.

[Abelardo]

Hi I got a question, I'm quite new at poker and in about 7000 hands in Party .5-1 I'm VP$IP is about 19.5%, I'm currently 2 tabling and I'm beginning to wonder if I should drop a few marginal hands or move them to LP or button only, it seems it's the right thing to do since I have a lot to learn. I got trouble limping in EP with KQ for example, maybe I shouldn't play it in EP at all and gain experience from it in MP and LP, the same with KJ (I just posted a hand on this), I'm thinking maybe moving KJ to LP only would help, and I could slowly work it back to MP again. Should I cut down some hands or just leave it as it is?


Abelardo

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if you noticed duder, but 1-tabling is pretty goddamn boring.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said it wasn't. but we're talking about effective playing poker here, not what is the most exciting type of poker.

[RaiNz]

[ QUOTE ]
I got trouble limping in EP with KQ for example, maybe I shouldn't play it in EP at all and gain experience from it in MP and LP, the same with KJ (I just posted a hand on this), I'm thinking maybe moving KJ to LP only would help, and I could slowly work it back to MP again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry off topic, but I think you should be raising KQ EP, and that KJ is fine to limp in with MP.

[gvibes]

Resurrecting a dead thread...

Anyways, I've decided that Nate's post has turned me into a LAG.

My first 5k hands in PT - 16.5/8.5 - nice TAG right?

Last 3k (since reading the thread) - 19.7/9.8 - I am nearing LAG status

I am now taking down a lot of pots that I never would have even taken part of before. I think that, even in my poker-playing infancy, I'm making more from entering these pots than I'm losing. As I improve, my EV on these sort of hands should increase.

I think I've actually started playing poker now, as opposed to following charts and counting outs.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
19.7/9.8 - I am nearing LAG status

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi gv. I hardly call 19.7 loose. I'm 29/9 over 17k and +2BB - Take away two abberations: one of which you witnessed Friday at the 2+2 game, and I would be 3.5BB/100. Now...I'd say I'm a little loose - but 19.7 ...I don't think so.

cya later, TomBk

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
That's exactly what I was trying to say. But then, I am Greek.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ahh, birthplace of the Olympics and residence of the Gods. Nice job in Athens in '04. =TomBk

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Last 3k (since reading the thread) - 19.7/9.8 - I am nearing LAG status

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm 23/12 at .5/1. Don't worry about your stats seeming LAGgish -- they look solid to me.

Rob