god i love the check-raise.. (low content)

[elmitchbo]

i had a few really sweet ones tonight. to me there is nothing better in a game of poker than a check raise that works to perfection. i use it almost every time i flop a set or better in early or middle position. if i'm 95% sure that no one will bet i'll open, but i really prefer to check-raise. it feels so good to watch somebody limp in with a minimum bet, then it watch it get called around to you... so you can drop the hammer!! anybody have specific check raise strategy they could share? how much do you usually re-raise for? is it possible to over use this strategy? sometimes i think i might over do it and cost myself a few bets here and there.

[Shoe]

There's nothing I love more than catching one of you freaking check raisers with the nuts.

[elmitchbo]

seems like you have some animosity for the check raise. i actually thnink about the reaction people have at their computer when i do it. i've been able to bluff and take pots with a check raise many more times than it's back fired. but it does happen occasionally. do you not use the check raise shoe?

[Shoe]

I do use the check raise, but I have found that betting out and getting raised so that I can 3 bet can be more profitable at times too. It depends on the situation, but if you check raise too much you are going to be costing yourself bets when everyone checks behind you, and on the opportunities where you could have 3 bet, or possibly gotten it capped where as check raising slows everyone down.

[Viscant]

Why are you check-raising with a set or better? These hands are strong enough that they don't necessarily need that much protection. Unless you're pretty sure the initial bettor is immediately on your left, check-raising will usually accomplish less than betting out in a case you know you're best.
Overusing the check-raise borders on FPS.

[memphis57]

You sound like you're using check-raising more for psychological income than for money income, and I think that is -EV. Nothing tightens up the fish and chases them away more than being repeatedly check-raised. And as said, you probably lose far more bets on your good hands than you gain.

There's a place for the check-raise but it really should be pretty rare. And if you care about making max profits, you need to learn how to treat the fish gently. Rubbing it in is a chump-change kind of move, it always costs you dollars in the long run. Do you also show your cards when you win a bluff pot?

[stonecoldnuts]

most of the games you find these days are filled with enough loose action that betting out is far more profitable then C/R'ing and blocking out some one that really wants to call w/ bottom pair.
I'm a fan of using it to protect weak hands rather than possibly losing customers when i have the nuts.

[Shoe]

Here is an example of why I don't usually go for the check raise:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP1 calls, SB folds.

River: (13.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Qd Qc (four of a kind, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 14.50 BB. </font>

I don't think I would have won as much going for the check-raise, if anyone thinks I should have played it differently, please let me know. Both callers have VPIP over 40.

[reubenf]

I'm pretty sure the OP is talking about NL and all the responses are about limit.

[Shoe]

OP, please clarify.

[Spellmen]

In the OP he asks how much everyone normally raises when they CR, so it is obvious he talking NL or PL as you cannot choose the amount to raise in limit /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Shoe]

Oh, gotcha.... I read it too fast and interpeted it in my limit brain as how often do you check raise....

[elmitchbo]

mostly NL tourney's at this point. which i think might be a little more justification for over protecting a hand, and using aggrresive strategies like the CR. in a tourney you have to beat the fish down to win, no interest in keeping them around like a ring game. i also try to use it when there is a larger field that has created a big pot. it certainly seems to me that the CR would have more selective applications in limit games, because you can't really put the squeeze on someone with one BB they way you can with a 1.5x pot raise.

you guys are right though, i do get alot of psychological profit out of the CR. that's partly why asked the question. i wanted to see if i was the only one.

[jtr]

Sorry, elmitchbo, but I think you have this exactly the wrong way round. The check-raise is one of your handiest tools in a limit game, as it's about the only tool you've got for manipulating the odds that others will have to call a bet. Whereas in a no-limit game, you can determine the odds that others will have to call by judicious choice of your bet size. So the check raise is not as useful. Sure, there are occasions on which it is the right move, but generally you want to bet, get raised, and then put in a reraise, rather than hope they'll bet and then put the fear of god into them with a check-raise.

[Piers]

[ QUOTE ]
i think i might over do it and cost myself a few bets here and there.


[/ QUOTE ]

The important thing is to know you have outsmated the other guy. A few chips here and there hardly matter compaired to that.

[Spekkio]

Check raise = biggest tell ever.

[anuj]

[ QUOTE ]
Check raise = biggest tell ever.

[/ QUOTE ]Tell of what? I often use a CheckRaise to find out where I'm at postflop. Great information tool as well, imo.

[HopeydaFish]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Check raise = biggest tell ever.

[/ QUOTE ]Tell of what? I often use a CheckRaise to find out where I'm at postflop. Great information tool as well, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

In limit, I'll use the checkraise...

1) When SH and am not last to act, and I'm on a draw, I'll check-raise hoping to win the pot right there. If they call me and I don't make my hand on the turn, I'll sometimes get to see the river for free (though the better players will recognize the reason for my check-raise and bet on the turn if I check after seeing the turn card).

2) In the BB, and the Button has raised pre-flop and I'm the only caller. I'll check-raise if he bets after the flop if I've made any sort of hand. The button's reaction to my check-raise will usually tell me what he's holding.

3) If I'm HU against a total maniac who bets on every street, and I think I've got the winning hand and I'm positive he'll bet on the river and call my checkraise, I'll play the checkraise to win the extra bet. Against a non-maniac, I'd just bet for value.

[CORed]

With a set, I'm more inclined to bet and three-bet a raise.

I'm rather fond of the turn check-raise, per HPFAP. If you've been semi-bluffing (or value betting draws) on the flop a lot, you can bet the flop check-raise the turn with a good made hand. I will sometimes do it with as little as TPGK. It is especially effective against hyper-agressive players who tend to bet whenever you check to them, whether they have a hand or not.

River check-raises with big hands can be fun too, but you have to be careful lest you miss too many bets trying to check-raise and having it checked behind.