20/40 hand

[mmcd]

Party Poker 20/40 Omaha/8 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

River: (16.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets...</font> (intending to fold to a raise)

[johnnybeef]

preflop: my first instinct tells me to throw away this hand to a bet and a raise, but i noticed the limit we are at. at this limit it is likely that the co was trying to blind steal and/or buy the button , and the button was trying to pick off or rebluff. but that is hard to tell without being at the table for a few orbits. that being said your hand is marginal at best. all in all i think i go with my original instinct of folding. your edge is not that good, find a better situation.


flop: you missed it. totally. time to fold.

turn: middle two pair is usually not going to hold up if it is currently good, your low draw sucks. fold again.

river. well played.

[Ironman]

I've been lurking here for awhile and really appreciate everyone posting these hands so I can see what is going through peoples heads.

I really have a problem with you saying that you would fold your hand on the river for 1 bet.


That just can't be right even if the guy does have K K.

He might even have something like A 2 3 K...but you can't play in fear of that for 1 bet to win all 17 bets.

How often do you win this hand? I wouldn't even guess at the percentage, but it's got to be better than 1 in 17 times. Buzz would know for sure.

I like the bet on the river...good things happen when you bet.

Dave

[thatpfunk]

hes folding because villian can only raise with hands that beat him

My only comment is that I would have folded this hand after the flop without a second thought.

[chaos]

I would be inclined to fold preflop unless the raisers are very aggressive or I put them on a steal and a re-steal. If one of them also has A2 your hand does not have much value.

I would fold on the flop to even a single bet. You have only middle pair. There is only one low card. Even if you backdoor the low you may be splitting the low half of the pot. The object of the game is to scoop the pot. With this flop you have very little chance of scooping.

I don't know your thinking for raising on the turn. Were you hoping to drive out the third player? It seems unlikely that your tens-up is the best hand. You have not made your second nut low yet. Your raise ended up costing you two big bets and you didn't drop anyone.

On the river it might be better to check. You may get a player with A2 to bet his trips. You get to see the showdown for only one bet if you are beat and do not have to worry about a bluff raise stealing the pot.

[Moneyline]

Preflop: Considering the position of the raisers and the fact that you have a 4 to go with your A2 combo I would probably call as well. If these are tight lp raisers, however, I'm mucking.

Flop: I would check/fold here, and the decision wouldn't be close. Even against total maniacs with this sort of action middle pair with a backdoor low draw (that is probably only good for 1/4) is not strong enough to stay in with IMO.

Turn: I think there is some chance you might be best here for high, but the chance isn't great. Even if you are best you may only get half the pot. Because the pot is pretty big a raise may not be a bad idea if your opponents are likely to drop, but I would still rather fold, especially if they are not likely to fold. Once you are 3-bet you have to consider the fact that you may be drawing dead, despite the size of the pot I would fold my 4 out draw.

River: I would check/call here. I suspect you are beat here, but the pot is so big that I'd still want to call. Unless the button is the type of player to 3-bet with top 2 pair thinking it's a great hand, you are probably facing a bigger full house.

EDIT: I'm changing my mind about the river, I suspect a bet is slightly better. I think this would be a thin value bet, but it would have value nevertheless. I still suspect you are beat, but if you aren't it's better to collect bets than not.

[mmcd]

I think you guys are underestimating the level of agression in this game.

[jayheaps]

You have a hand that doesn't play that well multiway, especially in a raised pot. Plus you are playing it out of position.

On the flop you have to call 2 bets cold with a good draw to nothing.

Yes, Aggression is important, but you dont want to use it out of position with a low-only hand.

[mmcd]

What of the fact that my A-T could easliy be the best hand on the flop?

Also, my hand is way too good to fold preflop, especially given the positions of the raisers.

Hand's I've seen 3-bet in this game:

A457o, JJ76s, 3455, A36Qs, QQXXo...well, you get the idea.

[Moneyline]

If your opponents were loose raisers it would have been helpful if you included that information in your original post. That said, even with maniacs in the pot I seriously doubt continuing on with middle pair and an ace kicker is a +EV move.

[gergery]

Preflop: I call. You’re already in for 1 bet from the BB. I’ve played the 20-40 some and have found it to be quite different than lower levels. Pretty tight, and pretty aggressive. CO will not have total crap here but doesn’t need a strong hand either. And Button only needs a hand that would rather play heads up than than 4-way, which can be a wide range. You will have positive equity (given the pot odds here) vs. most other 2 possible hands here, even if one of them is AA2x. Folding is a reasonable second choice if your opponents are worthy of some respect.

Flop: Easy check-fold to the raise. The raiser is very likely to have either a set, two pair, AK, bad AA. Even if you have draws for two pair so do your opponents. The raise is particularly bad news since you could get caught between a raising war.

Turn: I’d just call. Normally, raising to push out CO is worth it. But given the action on the flop its unclear if your hand is good now or will still be good at showdown, and unlikely you’ll push CO out on the high side, and for low you want them around.

River: I’d check-call or maybe even check-raise. Since button didn’t reraise you on the turn when the meaningless 2 hit, I don’t put him on KK/TT. Also, K5 or KT are dealt about twice as often. So you are ahead more often than not here. But a worse hand is unlikely to call you, but may well bet since this is the perfect place to induce a bluff as anyone with a busted low, spade or straight draw must bet to try to win, and trip 2’s or 52 might also value bet if you check. I would not fold here getting 17:1.

--Greg

Question: Are you sure you want to advocate calling on this flop when you’ve missed badly, yet folding on this river when you hit big? You could hardly have asked for two better cards on the turn/river. I cannot believe that both those decisions together in the same hand could be correct play.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
What of the fact that my A-T could easliy be the best hand on the flop?

Also, my hand is way too good to fold preflop, especially given the positions of the raisers.

Hand's I've seen 3-bet in this game:

A457o, JJ76s, 3455, A36Qs, QQXXo...well, you get the idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

you should have stated in your initial post.

[mmcd]

[ QUOTE ]
If your opponents were loose raisers it would have been helpful if you included that information in your original post

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker

[/ QUOTE ]

[mmcd]

Since button didn’t reraise you on the turn when the meaningless 2 hit,

The button did 3-bet the turn.

[mmcd]

They both folded instantly, so it appears my hand was good on the flop. Button must have been getting frisky with A3 and spades on the turn.

[Buzz]

mmcd -

First betting round: Of course you're going to play this hand, and for any number of raises. The advocates of frequent pre-flop raises would probably suggest jamming yourself. However, I like the way you played this betting round.

Second betting round: You almost completely missed the flop! You have (1) a back-door nut-low draw with mediocre counterfeit protection, (2) a back-door non-nut full house(/quads) draw, and (3) a back-door non-nut flush draw. Of course you check. (All you have are back-door draws).

Next CO bets and Button raises!

Comparing this to volleyball, CO is making the set and Button is making the spike. These guys have played like a team for the first two betting rounds. (I wonder if they're friends).

Without the three bets on the flop it would be an easy fold. But all that money in the pot from the first betting round changes things. And, assuming the apparent collusion between your two active opponents is implicit, rather than explicit, it changes things for your opponents too, and possibly in about the same way they're changed for you. All three of you tend to be stuck in the pot simply because of the size of the pot and because the others are also stuck, holding the promise of nice implied pot odds. In other words, I think you can expect your opponents to both contribute on this and the next betting round, and probably on the river if the turn and river are both low cards.

At this point, assuming your opponents are not playing as a team, I'm wondering about your opponents and what they might think about you. Button bet before the flop in such a way as to either not want you in this hand or in such a way as to seem to consider you a fool.

After you called the double raise of your blind on the first betting round, Button is again betting in such a way as to either not want you in the hand or in such a way as to seem to consider you a fool.

Assuming your opponents are not playing as a team, I think what to do is a close decision. If you held
2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif instead of
2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, you'd have favorable odds to call (even though all you would have would be back-door draws). In other words, with
2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, your implied pot odds would be better than the hand odds against you.

But you don't quite have nut counterfeit protection for your backdoor low draw and you have middle flopped pair rather than top flopped pair.

Figuring your odds here seems, to me, very complex and involving a number of assumptions. I'd guess it was a close decision, either way. (call or fold).

Assuming your opponents are not playing as a team, I don't fault calling - but I'd tend to fold.

Third betting round:

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (7.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero raises, CO calls, Button 3-bets, Hero calls, CO calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero check-raises?? Yikes!!

I guess you were thinking you might knock out CO with the double bet. But you still have to win the pot. Knocking out CO if you don't win the pot is of no benefit to you. And it's damned expensive, especially if you get re-raised by Button who is either blowing smoke out his ears or has something like A2KK, A3KK, or 23KK, probably single or double suited (only 1/7 of those are rainbows).

Reading through (and digesting) your post before knowing what the turn was, I had decided that I'd call a bet on the turn if the turn was ace, trey, four, six, seven, eight, or ten - but fold if the turn was anything else. (The deuce of diamonds would seem to be the best of the deuces, and I felt somewhat enigmatic about it).

Maybe I was rash in excluding deuces, but you're coming out of the turn with the second nut low draw and a poor two pairs. Considering the betting, your hand at this point doesn't look very good to me.

All the same, because of the size of the pot, I'd call the re-raise.

More importantly, I wouldn't have raised to begin with. Even if you knock out CO with the raise, you still have to win the pot!

Fourth betting round:

[ QUOTE ]
River: (16.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero bets... (intending to fold to a raise)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I'd check, wait for the almost inevitable bet from Button, and call. Button has been betting as though holding KKXX. If not, and if nobody has K2XX, you have the winning hand here.

Finally, you're not seriously intending to fold if raised, are you? That line of play would be characterized as "weak," although "non-tenacious" is probably a more descriptive term. I don't think you want a reputation for "weak" play, unless you enjoy taking the heat. Maybe you can get opponents to bluff into you more often than they should, but it's damned stressful to play that way.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[beerbandit]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you guys are underestimating the level of agression in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand's I've seen 3-bet in this game:

A457o, JJ76s, 3455, A36Qs, QQXXo...well, you get the idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero bets... (intending to fold to a raise)

[/ QUOTE ]

doesnt seem right

maybe a check call or c/r is in order


cheers

[mmcd]

Hey Buzz,

Excellent post. You don't consider the turn raise to be for value against donkish opponents? Also, as for my river plan, I expected to get called by AA AK even Kx which may have checked behind, not to mention A2, which probably would have bet, but I can't checkraise anyways. On the turn I figured the button either had AA KK TT KT or was completely full of [censored], I think only KK or TT raises me on the river after the turn action.

[obi---one]

You have to fold on the flop, what are you drawing too?
On the turn, again what are you drawing too? Only a three gives you something worth playing.
On the river, I would check and call. The pot is big no use giving someone a chance to outplay me.

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
Since button didn’t reraise you on the turn when the meaningless 2 hit,

The button did 3-bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

My bad. Then check-call seems better than raising or check-raising. I would never fold this getting 17:1 against loose donks, so...

if you bet how often will you get called by a worse hand? not that often. maybe trips or weaker full.

if you bet how often will you get raised by a better hand?
while its unlikely they have this....always and it'll cost you an extra bet.

if you check, how often will they bet?
Fairly often, since the pot is very large, and many draws missed, so those hands have no way to win without betting. they also might think you have one of those hands and thus think you will fold a two pair type hand that might beat their totally missed 1-pair+draw.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't consider the turn raise to be for value against donkish opponents?

[/ QUOTE ]

mmcd - The turn raise seems rash. No, it's not a value raise against anybody. You have a mediocre two pair without much prospect of improving. As it turns out, the river card is very nice for you, but most river cards would not be.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[mmcd]

...without much prospect of improving


Prior to the guy in the middle calling 2 cold on the turn, how much value would you give to my 2nd nut low draw here?

What percentage of the time would I have to get the pot heads-up to make this raise +ev?

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Prior to the guy in the middle calling 2 cold on the turn, how much value would you give to my 2nd nut low draw here?

[/ QUOTE ]

mmcd - Hard to say.

Trouble with drawing to and making 2nd nut low is sometimes you're stuck paying off the nut low when you make your draw.

2nd nut low draw is a whole lot better when it adds the possibility of scooping to a probable winning high.

For the sake of discussion, let's say a six, seven, or eight is worth half as much as it would be worth to a nut low draw.

A three is an out for a wheel (nut low) rather than an out for 2nd nut low.

I think the two missing deuces are probably scoopers on the river.

Non-spade treys will make a wheel which probably scoops, but may split with an opponent holding A4XX or 46XX. The three of spades makes a wheel but might also make an opponent a flush.

I do think because of the pot size you have odds to call a bet on the third betting round.

To raise, you have to be able to answer yes to one of the following two considerations:
• (1) Will the raise knock out an opponent who would beat you if not knocked out?
• (2) If the raise doesn't knock out an opponent who would beat you, is the fresh money going into the pot greater than the odds against making your hand?

If the answers to both questions are no, then I don't think you should raise.

The answer to the first question depends on your opponents and you know them better than I do.

The answer to the second question in the scenario you have painted, I believe, is "No."

[ QUOTE ]
What percentage of the time would I have to get the pot heads-up to make this raise +ev?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. I am unable to put your opponents on cards here.

Will CO beat you for high if not knocked out? If so, does your check-raise have a good chance of knocking out CO? If your check-raise does knock out CO, will you beat Button for high?

If your check-raise does knock out CO, and if you beat Button for high, would you have also beaten CO for high?

You obviously give yourself a better chance to win a hand when you raise, since an opponent may throw away a winner. Will these opponents throw away winning hands often enough to justify raises with the weak hand you hold here?

I don't know. I don't think many of my opponents would. Maybe yours are different.

Buzz