QQ overcard on flop

[mr pink]

2/4 bodog

hero picks up Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif in mp1

2 folds, utg+2 limps, i raise, folded to the bigblind a loose passive kinda fishy who calls.

3 to the flop: 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif (6.5 small bets)

big blind bets, utg+2 calls, hero raises or folds ???

utg+2 being in between messed me up here... heads up i'm thinking it's an easy call down right?


big up - jeff

[Clarkmeister]

Call and see the turn.

[mr pink]

clark,

whats my action on a blank turn if either these happens:

A) bb bets, utg+2 call, hero ????

B) bb bets, utg+2 folds, hero ????


should i be folding A and calling down B ??///??

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
big blind bets, utg+2 calls, hero raises or folds ???

[/ QUOTE ]

it concerns me that you don't consider calling as an option, cuz that woulda been my first choice.

what good does raising do? you might get 3-bet by a flush draw and that would suck something awful cuz it might cause you to fold the winner.

[Clarkmeister]

Depends how passive your loose passive BB is.

Lots of times you'll just call down, especially when the 3rd player in between you folds.

If the 3rd player calls, be more inclined to raise.

The thing is that more often than we tend to remember, the turn action goes check-check to you and you can bet your probable best hand.

[mr pink]

[ QUOTE ]
it concerns me that you don't consider calling as an option

[/ QUOTE ]

you and me both...

heads up i would have just called him down. having someone in between kind of through me off though. i guess i kinda gave the bb's bet a little more credit cause he was betting into 2 players instead of just heads up. raising was obviously retarded so i folded, it felt really weak at the time though. thanks chris

big up - jeff

[me454555]

Why not just toss it right there on the flop? Pot is small, theres 2 flush on the board and bb bet into you. He may be betting a K or a flushdraw w/an A. The other caller could have eitehr of those 2 holdings as well. I don't see how its profitable to see the turn here.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not just toss it right there on the flop? Pot is small, theres 2 flush on the board and bb bet into you. He may be betting a K or a flushdraw w/an A. The other caller could have eitehr of those 2 holdings as well. I don't see how its profitable to see the turn here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lots of people will take stabs at disjointed flops like this. You simply can't just go folding QQ because someone bet into a K53 flush draw board. It's not like there aren't times and players where you will fold on the turn here, there are, but you have position and should use it here to see what happens on the turn.

[mr pink]

[ QUOTE ]
If the 3rd player calls, be more inclined to raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

clark,

i have an idea but i'm not sure i follow you on this... could you explain?

[me454555]

If it was heads up I'd aggree that calling here is right. Does the presence of a caller change this at all for you?

[Clarkmeister]

A key turn concept with medium strength possible best hands is that the more people are in, the more you should be inclined to raise. The dead money from the stragglers offsets the times that you are losing, and also their possible outs make charging them more mandatory the times that you are in front.

In this spot, if headsup, you likely will only fold a hand drawing near dead like a pocket pair, and the live hands (like a flush draw) will tend to fire a bluff at the river anyways, so you still collect the 2 bets that you would have gotten had you raised the turn. Plus, if all else fails, at least you get to suck out 5% of the time!

[mr pink]

that's what troubled me here.

i think clark packed it in for the night,

as a side note clark would be inclined to raise the turn if the big blind bet out again and the caller calls a second time. you get this?

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
If it was heads up I'd aggree that calling here is right. Does the presence of a caller change this at all for you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that a big mistake that players make when learning holdem is being scared of people who call single bets, particularly on the flop. It's an important concept against other skilled players in medium and high stakes games. But in a game like this where the caller will routinely have something like 7d8d it's generally a mistake to worry about the callers at all.

[mr pink]

thanks for the responses, clark.

big up - pink

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]

that's what troubled me here.

i think clark packed it in for the night,

as a side note clark would be inclined to raise the turn if the big blind bet out again and the caller calls a second time. you get this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I said I'd be *more* inclined to raise. Big difference. Like I said, a lot depends on the passivity of the BB. Lots of semi passive BB's will just check the turn with the flush draw once they get called in two spots.