Set vs. Multiple LP-Ps - Classic Matchup [Archive]

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molawn2mo

02-16-2005, 06:00 AM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Fantabulous table. Best I've been at in a week.

Button, SB and BB are each LP-P
UTG is TP-P

So, as we all have experienced countless times before, the interplay between protecting your hand and pumping the pot is what it's all about.

Did I misplay this?

I am especially interested in the thought process involved in the flop and turn decisions so please explain why you act in the manner that you proscribe.

Anyone pop the river, here?

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 3 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB calls, UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (22.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB raises, UTG folds, Hero calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 28.50 BB

molawn2mo

02-16-2005, 12:47 PM

shamelssly, he bumps

Grease

02-16-2005, 12:59 PM

The BB check raising sucks, but you made the right play by betting and calling. 3-betting would have been spewing. I like it. Follow the SB and BB around. Waiting until the turn to pop it is ok, since they were so loose.

jskills

02-16-2005, 01:45 PM

I like the way you played every street. The only exception is why not reraise the flop? I guess you wanted to keep the blinds in the hand? If they're coming along for 2 bets they probably will for 3 right?

It's the only spot you didn't have the pedal to the metal, which is the only place you can question your play (particularly if you did not take it down).

The turn cap is fine. I would also bet/call the river as you did.

molawn2mo

02-16-2005, 02:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like the way you played every street. The only exception is why not reraise the flop? I guess you wanted to keep the blinds in the hand? If they're coming along for 2 bets they probably will for 3 right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re-raising the flop makes the blinds face 2 SBs and is not just "one more" bet, as you imply. In any case, I would like other opinions on the flop/turn/river play, please.

Monty Cantsin

02-16-2005, 03:37 PM

I don't cap the turn. What do you put Tight/Passive on that limped UTG, check-raised to trap multiple players on the flop and is now 3-betting the turn? Not only do I think you're behind most of the time here, I'm not really sure which of your outs are good.

[ QUOTE ]

Anyone pop the river, here?

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean re-raise? That would be extremely unwise.

/mc

molawn2mo

02-16-2005, 04:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't cap the turn. What do you put Tight/Passive on that limped UTG, check-raised to trap multiple players on the flop and is now 3-betting the turn? Not only do I think you're behind most of the time here, I'm not really sure which of your outs are good.

[ QUOTE ]

Anyone pop the river, here?

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean re-raise? That would be extremely unwise.

/mc

[/ QUOTE ]

Monty-

So you put UTG on, specifically, 66? IF so, then, yep, I'm drawing to 1 out, but I am not capable of making that read.

Monty Cantsin

02-16-2005, 05:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]

So you put UTG on, specifically, 66?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. But given your read on this player 66 seems like his most likely hand.

He could also have KK that missed a pre-flop l/rr. He could have I guess he maybe could have A/images/graemlins/club.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif but why no raise UTG? He could maybe have K6 and be neither tight nor passive? I don't see 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3-betting the turn, but maybe? Maybe he's not so tight after all and has a straight?

After he 3-bet the turn what range of hands did you put him on?

/mc

me454555

02-16-2005, 05:32 PM

Just pump the flop. Theres no reason to want to eliminate people from this hand by waiting for the turn to raise. You have such a strong hand you don't mind people coming along. Just remember, your 2:1 to fill up by the river.

molawn2mo

02-16-2005, 05:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So you put UTG on, specifically, 66?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. But given your read on this player 66 seems like his most likely hand.

He could also have KK that missed a pre-flop l/rr. He could have I guess he maybe could have A/images/graemlins/club.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif but why no raise UTG? He could maybe have K6 and be neither tight nor passive? I don't see 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3-betting the turn, but maybe? Maybe he's not so tight after all and has a straight?

After he 3-bet the turn what range of hands did you put him on?

/mc

[/ QUOTE ]

I confess, I did not put him on a specific hand but, rather, saw any of the entire field as drawing to a flushie. Yes, there could be a set over set situation but I was unconcerned (my bad). My concern was, specifically, how best to protect against the flushie drawers while at the same time plowing as much into the pot as I could. I chose to minimize the pot size on the flop (and reduce the drawing odds) and pump the turn. That was the plan, flawed as it may have been. Was it flawed? That is the question.

molawn2mo

02-16-2005, 05:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Fantabulous table. Best I've been at in a week.

Button, SB and BB are each LP-P
UTG is TP-P

So, as we all have experienced countless times before, the interplay between protecting your hand and pumping the pot is what it's all about.

Did I misplay this?

I am especially interested in the thought process involved in the flop and turn decisions so please explain why you act in the manner that you proscribe.

Anyone pop the river, here?

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 3 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB calls, UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (22.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB raises, UTG folds, Hero calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 28.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks to all that have replied.

I thought about this all night and after 3 hours of sleep, popped up outta bed and had to post the hand.

BB raising the river was like a stab to the heart. He flips over AcJc for runner, runner, flushie and MHING. So would pumping the flop have discouraged this beat? Who knows?

mr pink

02-16-2005, 06:16 PM

well he would have had to call 2 cold on the flop, so there's a pretty good chance he bails right there. can't be sure, but he's not going anywhere once he picks up the nut flush draw on the turn.

either way i would have jammed this one on the flop. it's 2 toned already - protect your hand.

Yads

02-16-2005, 06:19 PM

I think not 3 betting that flop with 5 players in is bad. If he caps and doesn't slow down on the turn I'm inclined to call down.

Monty Cantsin

02-16-2005, 06:58 PM

Me:

[ QUOTE ]

...what range of hands did you put him on?

[/ QUOTE ]

You:

[ QUOTE ]

I confess, I did not put him on a specific hand...

[/ QUOTE ]

The main reason that you track your opponents' behavior and i.d. them as a "type" is to help you in estimating their possible holdings during a hand.

In this case you have a very official looking label for UTG that tells us you've collected data on him and sorted him into a category with a fairly high degree of precision. But then it's like you just ignored this information.

Either UTG has you beat or he is playing this hand in an unusual and uncharacteristic way.

[ QUOTE ]

...but, rather, saw any of the entire field as drawing to a flushie.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what?

[ QUOTE ]

My concern was, specifically, how best to protect against the flushie drawers while at the same time plowing as much into the pot as I could. I chose to minimize the pot size on the flop (and reduce the drawing odds) and pump the turn. That was the plan, flawed as it may have been. Was it flawed? That is the question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Attempting to protect your hand against flush draws is a giant tactical error. Anyone with a flush draw here is going to stick around for it, as well they should. Don't worry about the flush draws, they're along for the ride, sometimes they'll hit and sometimes they won't. They make the pot bigger when you win and they make it so you win less often.

I think it's misleading to analyze this situation in terms of hand protection and pot-pumping. Instead I would look at it in terms of pot equity. Whenever you flop a set you have huge equity. At this point you shouldn't worry about protection and just maximize the money going into the pot.

When UTG 3-bets your turn raise your pot equity takes a massive tumble. The fact that there are still players out there that are drawing doesn't change this fact.

The fact that you are often behind, plus the fact that when you are behind you often have only one out, plus the fact that when you are not behind your opponents have many, many outs makes the turn cap a clear mistake in my opinion.

I think your obsession with flush draws caused you to overplay this hand.

/mc

molawn2mo

02-16-2005, 09:03 PM

Monty:

I appreciate your comments and I agree with several of your points contained therewithin. Specifically,

"I think it's misleading to analyze this situation in terms of hand protection and pot-pumping. Instead I would look at it in terms of pot equity. Whenever you flop a set you have huge equity. At this point you shouldn't worry about protection and just maximize the money going into the pot."

This is immense.

And then

"When UTG 3-bets your turn raise your pot equity takes a massive tumble. The fact that there are still players out there that are drawing doesn't change this fact.

The fact that you are often behind, plus the fact that when you are behind you often have only one out, plus the fact that when you are not behind your opponents have many, many outs makes the turn cap a clear mistake in my opinion."

is right on it. I need to contemplate this.

"I think your obsession with flush draws caused you to overplay this hand."

Twas not the obsession with the flush draw but, rather, the ignorance of viewing the situation as a percentage of equity.

Villain's potential holdings of KK and 55 as well as a lone 4 were properly discounted with 66 being the only "reasonable" hand. The flushie was, indeed, hero's downfall, though villain catching runner, runner was the more difficult road to ruin. Same may or may not have been avoided by pumping the flop.

Again, I have learned something, here and appreciate your critique as well as the critique of the others.

jskills

02-17-2005, 10:00 PM

So why not reraise the flop? If they're coming along for 2 SMALL bets they probably will for 3 right?