Missed Turn Raise Bluff Opportunity?

[gaming_mouse]

Anyone prefer a "turn c/raise, check behind the river UI" to my line here?

Villain was tight/passive.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Button folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.66 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 7.66 BB

[sfer]

Why no frop bet?

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Why no frop bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the other player was loose, and possibly a LAG. I knew I had no fold equity, but that a raise was at least possible.

I've found that auto-betting UTG versus 2 players here is not right in general. Only against the right oppos.

[sfer]

I think you have the best hand a lot on that board and against two opponents.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you have the best hand a lot on that board and against two opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, even if that is true, they won't be folding and the next card can swing your equity drastically. I don't know.... I used to bet here always, but I stopped because I found it to be a leak. I'm pretty convinced it's a mistake. You think it's too weak?

[sfer]

Well, if you do have the best hand and you give 12 collective outs a free turn card to outdraw you, that would suck.

EDIT: Also, to stay on your original topic, when the top card pairs on the turn and he bets again, I wouldn't checkraise. Getting 3-bet would suck tremendously.

EDIT EDIT: Okay, the top card didn't pair on the turn and I suck. Regardless, if the top card did pair I would stand by my statement. I wouldn't semi-bluff without some decent folding equity, which you don't think you have, so I think the turn is fine.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, if you do have the best hand and you give 12 collective outs a free turn card to outdraw you, that would suck.

EDIT: Also, to stay on your original topic, when the top card pairs on the turn and he bets again, I wouldn't checkraise. Getting 3-bet would suck tremendously.

[/ QUOTE ]

So let's say you bet, and get two calls. What do you do in each of the following cases:

1. The turn is a K or Q
2. The turn is a blank

[sfer]

I bet the K and the Q. A blank turn I check.

HU I bet almost any card.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet the K and the Q. A blank turn I check.

HU I bet almost any card.

[/ QUOTE ]

How sure are you that this is correct?

Because I am fairly sure that against 2 oppos this is spewing, but I may be basing this on too small of a sample size. I had a 5-10K run where playing as you suggest stuck me real bad, and I determined to give it up. I've been having more success with a more conservative style in situations like this, but I might be wrong.

Also, is it possible you are in a 15/30 mindset?

[sfer]

Good points about the games I'm playing. I haven't played 15/30--or, for that matter, any serious online poker--in 6 weeks or so. But I've been playing live where people tend to give up their single pair hands more easily (and for those who don't, I tend to identify them very quickly). Playing more live also means that I feel my reads are much better for when I can use a scare card like a K to push someone off a hand.

The turn is a different situation, however. On a T52 flop, I am following through with unimproved Ace high and expecting to take the pot a lot 3-handed. On a QT9 board much less so.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Good points about the games I'm playing. I haven't played 15/30--or, for that matter, any serious online poker--in 6 weeks or so. But I've been playing live where people tend to give up their single pair hands more easily (and for those who don't, I tend to identify them very quickly). Playing more live also means that I feel my reads are much better for when I can use a scare card like a K to push someone off a hand.

The turn is a different situation, however. On a T52 flop, I am following through with unimproved Ace high and expecting to take the pot a lot 3-handed. On a QT9 board much less so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the clarification.

BTW, what's your answer to my original question? I still think a turn c/r might be the way to go once its HU. The way I'm looking at it is, it likely costs me the same as my line, but I also gain a good deal of fold equity.

[sfer]

I think if you're not betting the flop it doesn't make sense to semibluff the turn since he's probably only folding when you're ahead.

[MaxPower]

If the player behind you is tight/passive you should definitely bet the flop. If he calls it means he hit the flop or has some kind of pair, otherwise he will fold.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I think if you're not betting the flop it doesn't make sense to semibluff the turn since he's probably only folding when you're ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

A good point. A guess I was thinking I might be able to get him to lay down a T b/c of the flush scare card. Probably wishful thinking....

[MaxPower]

If you want folding equity bet the flop and bet the turn. Its a lot cheaper than check-raising the turn and will work more often.

[lu_hawk]

i don't think many players here will fold enough to make a semi-bluff more profitable than just calling and hoping to hit one of your outs.

[Aces McGee]

I've been playing the Party $3/$6, and I agree with you here, sfer. I think the gaming mouse should bet the flop.

-McGee