KQo calldown madness.

[btspider]

First hand vs unknowns. I called b/c i was closing the action on each street.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $3.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO (poster) calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

River: (11.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, CO folds, Hero calls.

I would not have overcalled. Calldown or fold (which street(s)?).

[FTRelipsesjeff]

Well, I think you should have check raised the flop. If three bet check/fold the turn. If called, lead the turn and fold to a reraise. Calling down in this situation is not a good play.

The only hand that you beat is TT through JJ, or a marginal hand. Without a read here, you cant call this down.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I think you should have check raised the flop. If three bet check/fold the turn. If called, lead the turn and fold to a reraise. Calling down in this situation is not a good play.

The only hand that you beat is TT through JJ, or a marginal hand. Without a read here, you cant call this down.

[/ QUOTE ]

after those overcalls on the flop, i figured i was drawing. so for those 3 SB's that I would pay when 3-bet on the flop, i can see the river card and fold unimproved.

in this instance i reevaluated my chances of winning and called HU closing the action.

[MercTec]

I like leading out on this flop. Either the PFR calls and you are probably ahead, or he raises and thins out the field. I think the hand gets easier that way.

[Yads]

You have to bet that flop.

[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]
I like leading out on this flop. Either the PFR calls and you are probably ahead, or he raises and thins out the field. I think the hand gets easier that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my first thought.
I'm also not sure what hands you beat on the river enough to call, but given the pot size, I don't think this is that terrible.

-d

[FTRelipsesjeff]

[ QUOTE ]

after those overcalls on the flop, i figured i was drawing. so for those 3 SB's that I would pay when 3-bet on the flop, i can see the river card and fold unimproved.

in this instance i reevaluated my chances of winning and called HU closing the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you didnt fold the river though because you would have odds. Check raising here takes control of the hand and if your opponent raises preflop you save 1 bet. If he waits to raise the turn then its the same price. Building the pot also gives you better odds for chasing, and if another Q or K comes you've disguised your hand.

[FTRelipsesjeff]

[ QUOTE ]
I like leading out on this flop. Either the PFR calls and you are probably ahead, or he raises and thins out the field. I think the hand gets easier that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats an option too, I dont mind that play.

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
I like leading out on this flop. Either the PFR calls and you are probably ahead, or he raises and thins out the field. I think the hand gets easier that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is bad dude. If we are ahead we want to thin the field, but it won't ever happen because the villian will just call with worse hands (or fold). If we are behind, we don't want the villian to thin the field because we want to get a good price on our draw.

So that is the dilemma with betting out. We thin the field when we are beat and we keep the field in when we are ahead. Checking and calling is clearly the way to go in this hand.

Brad

[FTRelipsesjeff]

How is check/calling more profitable than betting? With betting you give your opponents an option to fold, by just calling you aren't doing anything.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
How is check/calling more profitable than betting? With betting you give your opponents an option to fold, by just calling you aren't doing anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

MP1 will give my opponents the same option.

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
How is check/calling more profitable than betting? With betting you give your opponents an option to fold, by just calling you aren't doing anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Give the raiser AJ. Say we bet into him, he raises and everyone folds. Now we get to play heads up with just 5 outs. By checking and calling, we still have 5 outs but we get a bigger overlay because there will more people putting bets into the pot. When you are behind, you don't want to drive people out of the pot. When you are ahead, you want people to fold, but the PFR isn't going to raise our flop bet (in all likeliness) unless we are drawing.

Brad

[FTRelipsesjeff]

True, but if he raises then you know you are significantly behind and can get out of the pot. If he has AQ or AK you are drawing nearly dead if not dead. Also, Dont forget you are playing at Party here, where any random fish will cold call 2 bets for his gutshot draw.

[MercTec]

I'm kinda looking at it this way as well. Since there are no reads, you can't really tell what your opponents are capable of. An aggressive players bets this flop no matter what, he could be holding anything. By betting into him, this defines the hand better. If he calls and a bunch of others tag along, you're getting a good price to draw if you're behind and value if you're ahead.
If he raises, you can probably give him credit for an ace unless he's very aggressive. You may get cold callers, or the field may thin out. Neither is horrible IMO. Call the raise and reevaluate the turn.

The pot is big...increase your winning chances.

[Chairman Wood]

I really can't imagine playing this any other way. Shillx already explained why I think check calling is the best option on all streets. The turn call could be debatable with the arguements that there is a possiblity that you are dominated by AQ or AK, however on the flop the pot is big enough for this to be a good play considering you are dominated some X% of the time.

[MoDOH]

A very interesting hand indeed. without a read i would have played this the same.

shillx has already explained why check-calling is the preferred way to go in this hand. it seems that sometimes people are desperately trying to find reasons to play aggressive at all costs, sometimes it´s just better to be the callingstation. as long as you have good reasons to call there is nothing ugly or shameful about calling...

Having said that I think check-calling the flop is a no-brainer.
Calling the Turn however is another matter. it´s close and I don´t think it´s a big misstake to call here. I would give you between 3-4.5 outs on this hand. since there are unknowns you are playing against and both MP2 and CO CC preflop I would tend to end up on the higher end of the scale. making it a close desicion...

And after you called the Turn and it´s folded to you I think you once again have to call against an unknown...

[frank_iii]

It feels painful but I think I'd probably do the same thing.

However, I think that check-raising the flop could actually be valuable in that it can get more information. If you lead out, many preflop raisers will auto-raise in this spot so you don't really know where you stand. If you check-raise then get re-raised, I think it's a safe assumption that you're beaten, especially if there are cold-callers.

Plus, I think it actually *can* thin the field since other players seem to respect check-raises much more than raises coming from the preflop raiser.

[bernie]

Im sorry, why are you c/r ing the flop?

[ QUOTE ]
Check raising here takes control of the hand and if your opponent raises preflop you save 1 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hard to control a hand without position. If the PFR calls your flop c/r, are you then betting out on the turn?

[ QUOTE ]
Building the pot also gives you better odds for chasing,

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't a good reason to c/r. How many other hands do you use this reasoning with?

[ QUOTE ]
and if another Q or K comes you've disguised your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hitting one of these could be tainted, couldn't they?

I wouldn't recommend c/r this flop at all. You'd be better to bet out and try and get him to raise. Or check call as the poster did.



b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Plus, I think it actually *can* thin the field since other players seem to respect check-raises much more than raises coming from the preflop raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's also much easier to thin a field if most of the field hasn't put any money on on that street. Once they put money in, they could feel more inclined to see the turn.

A raise from the PFR on this board should get enough respect. You do not want to put 3 bets in on the flop if you don't have to.

b

[FTRelipsesjeff]

[ QUOTE ]

Hard to control a hand without position. If the PFR calls your flop c/r, are you then betting out on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I said:

[ QUOTE ]

If three bet check/fold the turn. If called, lead the turn and fold to a reraise. Calling down in this situation is not a good play.

[/ QUOTE ]

How hard is that to do? You will find out real quick if you are ahead or behind. It gives you the option of winning the most when you are ahead and losing the least when behind.


[ QUOTE ]

Hitting one of these could be tainted, couldn't they?

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why are you calling down? If your outs are tainted just fold. Whats your argument?

[frank_iii]

[ QUOTE ]
It's also much easier to thin a field if most of the field hasn't put any money on on that street. Once they put money in, they could feel more inclined to see the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, absolutely. But it's not unheard of and it seems to happen more than I expect. That's all I was saying...if in person, I would have said "caaaaan" just like it's a possible outside benefit.

[ QUOTE ]
A raise from the PFR on this board should get enough respect. You do not want to put 3 bets in on the flop if you don't have to.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're 3-bet (especially with cold-callers), that should give you enough information to fold the turn unimproved which would save a BB, don't you think? I'm just thinking out loud, really. Like I said, I'd probably play it the same but it feels like there should be a better way.

[FTRelipsesjeff]

[ QUOTE ]
You do not want to put 3 bets in on the flop if you don't have to.


[/ QUOTE ]

Three bets on the flop is cheaper than 1 bet on both the turn and river. Thus, I would rather call a three bet on the flop and fold the turn than bet out and call down to the mp1's auto raise.

[Shillx]

Dude we have middle pair and the pot is big. What is the point of spewing just to "see where we stand". So let's say that we check/raise and get 3-bet. We still have to call all the way with probably 5 outs. Raising for information will only tie us to this big multiway pot. Having 3 bets go in on the flop and then folding the turn for one bet is just retarded when we have 5 outs. Check/raising costs us a lot when we are beat and it gains us a little when we are best and we are rarely good in this spot.

Brad

[FTRelipsesjeff]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude we have middle pair and the pot is big. What is the point of spewing just to "see where we stand". So let's say that we check/raise and get 3-bet. We still have to call all the way with probably 5 outs. Raising for information will only tie us to this big multiway pot. Having 3 bets go in on the flop and then folding the turn for one bet is just retarded when we have 5 outs. Check/raising costs us a lot when we are beat and it gains us a little when we are best and we are rarely good in this spot.


[/ QUOTE ]

After seeing the turn card, you have 1 card to hit 5 outs, of which you dont know are dominated. There are other callers in the pot, which will more than assure your Q is beat. Getting 3-bet here isn't expensive at all when you give up on the turn.

[hypermegachi]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude we have middle pair and the pot is big. What is the point of spewing just to "see where we stand". So let's say that we check/raise and get 3-bet. We still have to call all the way with probably 5 outs. Raising for information will only tie us to this big multiway pot. Having 3 bets go in on the flop and then folding the turn for one bet is just retarded when we have 5 outs. Check/raising costs us a lot when we are beat and it gains us a little when we are best and we are rarely good in this spot.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]
if it is 5 outs, you don't have odds to call the turn/river. i don't think this is a situation to make a crying miller call. your outs are tainted, so overall you probably have 3. it's possible you're up against AQ, which case you're drawing dead. AK has you in deep sh[/b]it too. you have 2 flop callers, 2 turn callers, with an aggressor willing to bet into 3 callers 2 streets. whatever MP has, it dominates your holding. with 2 callers 2 streets someone could have a weak ace.

[btspider]

results:

Villian, who ends up being a 50/10/4.0 villian after all of 25 hands, shows A/images/graemlins/heart.gifJ/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

certainly not surprising, i was expecting to lose 90% of the time.

[Erik W]

I'd toss this at turn since u already have 2 callers it'd be rare that not any of them have an ace and u are probably drawing to less than 5 outs.

If I go to river I call if u r alone with raiser as u r.

[bernie]

If someone is going to 3 bet a c/r, they would also raise a flop bet. So you're accomplishing the same thing only with a c/r you put in an extra bet on the flop.

Besides, what hand are they putting you on when you bet out? You're not exactly representing a draw betting out.

With a pot like this, im thinking more protection and maximizing my chances of winning. A c/r on the flop does neither.

b

[hypermegachi]

[ QUOTE ]
With a pot like this, im thinking more protection and maximizing my chances of winning. A c/r on the flop does neither.

[/ QUOTE ]
i fail to see how calling does either protecting or maximizing chances of winning...

[FTRelipsesjeff]

[ QUOTE ]
If someone is going to 3 bet a c/r, they would also raise a flop bet. So you're accomplishing the same thing only with a c/r you put in an extra bet on the flop.

Besides, what hand are they putting you on when you bet out? You're not exactly representing a draw betting out.

With a pot like this, im thinking more protection and maximizing my chances of winning. A c/r on the flop does neither.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Most check raises dont get three bet unless your opponent has a good hand. If three bet, its an easy fold.

[hypermegachi]

[ QUOTE ]

Most check raises dont get three bet unless your opponent has a good hand. If three bet, its an easy fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
about the only problem i have with CRing the flop, is you'll have a scared AJs fearing 2 pair or domination and they'll call you down the rest of the way.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
i fail to see how calling does either protecting or maximizing chances of winning...

[/ QUOTE ]

Are calling and c/r'ing the only options we have on the flop?

If I chose to just call, I obviously wouldn't be going for protection on the flop, would I?

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
If three bet, its an easy fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

Up above, you said you'd call the 3 bet then check/fold the turn.

Getting called on your c/r then raised on the turn isn't an easy fold either depending on the turn card.

b

[hypermegachi]

[ QUOTE ]
Are calling and c/r'ing the only options we have on the flop?

If I chose to just call, I obviously wouldn't be going for protection on the flop, would I?

[/ QUOTE ]
putting in the turn raise doesn't protect your hand or maximize expectation. they are seeing the river. about the only good that to happen is you raise, and MP reraises, with the 2 people after needing to call 2 cold. but with the pot so big already they are still correct to call with most draws (in this case a straight draw).

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If someone is going to 3 bet a c/r, they would also raise a flop bet. So you're accomplishing the same thing only with a c/r you put in an extra bet on the flop.

Besides, what hand are they putting you on when you bet out? You're not exactly representing a draw betting out.

With a pot like this, im thinking more protection and maximizing my chances of winning. A c/r on the flop does neither.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Most check raises dont get three bet unless your opponent has a good hand. If three bet, its an easy fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

All that changes when we check/raise is that pot gets bigger. We have 5 outs no matter if we check/raise or check/call or bet. Folding 5 outs in a bigger pot is worse then folding 5 outs in a smaller pot. If he 3-bets and we fold we pretty much just shot ourself in the foot when he flips up AJ. We would have made a bad laydown and we shouldn't be patting ourself on the back for folding the worst hand in a huge pot when we have odds to draw out.

Brad

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
putting in the turn raise doesn't protect your hand or maximize expectation.

[/ QUOTE ]

When did we get to the turn? Im still on the flop.

b

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
Building the pot also gives you better odds for chasing

[/ QUOTE ]

The next person who says this is getting bitch slapped.

[hypermegachi]

[ QUOTE ]

When did we get to the turn? Im still on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
hehe...ok...so you bet out into a 10.5sb pot, MP raises, and we probably get 1 person left along for the ride. what's your plan of action now?

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Building the pot also gives you better odds for chasing

[/ QUOTE ]

The next person who says this is getting bitch slapped.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. That logic is terrible. By that logic it would make sense to raise and cap with a pocket pair when you don't hit a set, if you can get it to 20-1 odds so you can chase your 2-outer...

As for the hand, I think betting the flop makes it much easier to play. I can't understand the point in check-raising. If I was the villain and flopped an Ace, I'd either be 3-betting the flop, or more likely just calling the check-raise, so the BB will bet and I can raise the turn and make the field call two-cold.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
so you bet out into a 10.5sb pot, MP raises, and we probably get 1 person left along for the ride. what's your plan of action now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Checking the turn. Then it depends on the turn card and/or addtional action if Im seeing the river.

b

[cmu311]

i have a question about the pre-flop call. It seems to me that calling two cold with KQo preflop might leave you easily dominated by either AKs or AQs or possibly a big pair. Any thoughts on that?

I'll defer to the experts as whether or not to bet or check raise the flop, though i do think that the check call is wrong.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
i have a question about the pre-flop call. It seems to me that calling two cold with KQo preflop might leave you easily dominated by either AKs or AQs or possibly a big pair. Any thoughts on that?

[/ QUOTE ]

He didn't coldcall preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
though i do think that the check call is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

This can depend on your opponents and reads on them.

This isn't an easy hand to play postflop, btw.

b