Giving Poker Lessons

[Gamblor]

When I first got into poker, I was obsessed with it. I read everything I could, I studied everything I could, I played and went over PT information as often as I could. Even more, I talked about it as often as I could, and my friends began to take notice of my success.

They've heard about a couple tourney wins and my cash game results, and have approached me about giving them poker lessons.

It is my intention to buy them each a copy of ToP to use as textbooks and go through each chapter and explain the concepts and theories etc. etc. - I don't plan on restricting them to hold 'em.

Anyone consider a better way to go about this?

[BluffTHIS!]

Hi,

Although TOP is an important text, I don't know if many newbs will understand it at all without having some playing experience first. You could possibly start with Malmuth & Loomis' Fundamentals of Poker for the real basics, and Stewart Reuben's Starting Out in Poker would also be good. After that maybe Lee Jone's book for holdem. Once they have read those, I think TOP would be much more meaningful to them, and they would have a good foundation for studying more advanced texts like HPAP.

Just my thoughts anyway. Good luck. And if they blow all their $$ anyway or knock you out of the WSOP just out of the money you have only yourself to blame /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[JackWilson]

I agree about TOP being a bit too advanced for beginners. It's (IMO) the most important and comprehensive book on poker ever written, but it doesn't mean it's the best to start off with. I liken it to starting grade school with a Shakespeare play. It could work if you give them more of a base to start off with, like say give your own introduction and total beginner BASIC lessons.

Another thing - I think it would be better and facilitate their learning much more if you did focus on 1 particular form of poker. Generalisations and abstract concepts are much harder to understand without having something very specific to apply them to.

[Gamblor]

These people aren't retarded; they know what beats what, that its good to play cards that have a chance of winning.

Perhaps SSHE is better?

[secondlook]

I agree that TOP will likely be too much for someone just starting out. When I started reading books on poker to learn that was the first book I purchased, I tried reading it and understanding it, but after about two weeks I put it aside - it was just too confusing without any skills on the poker table.

Bought a couple beginning books and I was able to test and implement the simple ideas there. Later I picked up the TOP book again and it was like a light bulb.

You have to teach them how to crawl first, then to walk, before they can run. TOP is for the player who is ready to run, but just hasn't quite figured out how to yet.

[ham]

My thinking on this:

If you have to come on here and ask for "how to teach" advice, then you're not a natural or experienced teacher. Which is fine. But it means you shouldn't be thinking in terms of "what's the most logical and correct way to approach this project in the way a typical teacher would." Using TOP as a poker textbook for relative noobs is something someone with a plan might be able to pull off.

That's not the case, here. You have friends who asked you to help them duplicate your success.

Cool.

Do that. Take them by the hand, and walk them through the steps you took to get from relative noob to where you are today. "You want to know what I did? Here's what I did. It works." When the only teaching experience you have is drawn from your own past, use that material. Don't overthink it and worry about "doing it right" instead of "doing what you know already worked."

If you started with Lee Jones, start them with Lee Jones. If you started with SSHE, start them with SSHE. If you started with a crib sheet printed off some how-to-win-at-poker website, a $10 bankroll, and a maniacal addiction to .01/.02 limit games, start them that way.

[Mike]

I am sure they are not retarded but they need lessons which means their experience is limited. Because of this they have different gaps that need to be filled. Starting from the begining can't hurt can it? Unless they are finishing their poker career by June, what is the rush?

Imo SSHE ruins more new players than it helps.

[34TheTruth34]

you should probably charge them $50 or $100 an hour, or else they may not take it seriously and it'll just be a big waste of your time.

[laja]

The method that I use on www.pokermentor.net (http://www.pokermentor.net) which I believe to be most effecient and effective is critiquing hand histories. Everytime you correct a hand, it doesn't just teach them that exact combination of cards but instead the concepts in that hand can be generalized to whole areas of poker; like "how to play top pair in late position with x numbe rof players in" ect This is the closest thing to actually sitting next to them and telling them how to play. This is the way in which I was able to learn so quickly. However, you are correct in the belief that a twoplustwo book will complement your teaching well. I would suggest starting off with SSHE. Good luck in your endeavour -Mentor

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
These people aren't retarded; they know what beats what, that its good to play cards that have a chance of winning.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then I think they should get some playing experience before focussing on books. The books are going to be much easier to understand if they have a basic feel for a game. Set up a very low stakes home game where you all play together and whenever one of them makes a big mistake like playing a horrendous hand or not raising with the nuts, explain what he did wrong (when the hand is over). Make it pretty relaxed; maybe buy some beer. But also try to get them to take it somewhat seriously and try to play well or it will be a waste.

[olavfo]

In my opinion playing experience is more important than poker literature for a starting player. Reading up on advanced theory does not help all that much until you have reached a skill level where you no longer make big, fundamental errors. You don't need to read a book to learn that.

I would start by fixing the worst mistakes first before moving on to theory. Teach them the most fundamental things first without using any book (simple starting hands criteria, the importance of position, etc.) and tell them to practice these things in real low-limit play. Then move on to theoretical stuff like counting outs, odds vs pot odds, basic postflop play and so on.

It's easier to grasp theory when you already have faced those situations in real play.

olavfo

[TStoneMBD]

many people have asked me to teach them how to play poker well. i have an interest to see anybody succeed at anything they set their minds to, and i hate talent gone to waste. however, i really dont think there is a way to go about teaching people how to play poker. it takes years of experience to get good at the game, but its certainly true that an expert can move their progress along at great pace. i think your best bet is to layout guidelines for them to follow. tell them what books to read in which order, and tell them to spend x number of hours on twoplustwo.com per week, and ask you to critique x number of hands they have questions about. maybe i am being far too much of a comformist, but i dont think its very possible for a person to become a winning poker player if they cannot sit down and understand TOP with some novice background of the game. TOP is not about sophisticated fundamental plays in poker, it is about understanding math. its about logic and ration, and anybody who has the potential to be a very winning poker player should be able to sit down and read the book while understanding a large majority of the concepts. maybe you would be better off having them read lee jones first, and then have them read TOP. it takes dedication for a player to progress in poker, and a natural ability to learn on his own. however, if you really want to approach them with hands on activity, i recommend that you show them how the following concepts are relevant:

show them how to use twodimes.net. show them what preflop equity is. show them what reverse and nonreverse implied odds are, and which hands have which.

show them the pokerroom.com preflop equity chart. this is a fairly good guideline as to what hands to play in what positions, and the equity numbers should make it easier for them to understand why some are the way they are. (many people cannot understand how A8o is worse than KQ, and many cannot understand the power of suited vs nonsuited.)

show them how to be aggressive, vs passive. show them how equity works in postflop play. show them which hands they want to trim the field with, and which hands they want other players to follow along with.

i believe that many players have difficulty in understanding preflop value, but are generally ok at postflop play. approach them with sound mathematical analysis, how pushing small edges in the long run makes money. if they cannot understand how short term luck is not something poker players think about when making decisions, either show them why this is, or tell them they have no shot.

be realistic with them. i believe that many people have the ability to become professional poker players if they dedicate themselves to the game. however, it certainly takes a certain psychological makeup of a person for them to understand the game from a complex level. tell them that if you are going to teach them how to play poker, then they are forbidden to ever play any other casino games. show them that they are for suckers, and that longterm equity is what winners base their life on, not shortterm luck.

my impression is that it is easier for a new player to sit down and do fairly well at a no-limit cash game compared to a limit cash game, at least that is how it was in my experience. nolimit is about instincts, hand reading and psychology, while limit is about math that they have not yet been exposed to. however, if a player truly wishes to excel at poker i think that starting off with limit is the way to go. the complex math of limit will open their minds to a greater understanding of all poker, and their learning curve should accelerate at other games at a much faster pace.

if your students are not intrigued by the complex math of poker, then you should tell them its no use. being good at poker is about study, and if they are not interested in dedicating their time to understanding how to obtain even the smallest of equity in their decisions, then they need to get a real job.

[ceskylev]

I agree with the general theory that TOP would make their heads spin. Two suggestions:

1) One form of poker at a time. Teaching multiple concepts in one lesson (especially if there are subtle variations from game to game) in any subject is the surest way to confuse a student. HE seems to have the best learning curve, so I'd start there.

2) Draw up a syllabus of some sort. Even if it's just for you to reference. You need a plan to make sure you're teaching concepts in a logical progression. Outline all of the concepts you want to teach (in reasonable detail) and fiddle with the order until you come up with something that makes sense. Use the Jones and Miller books as guides.

A lot of teaching is preperation. With some thought, you can have a good idea of what kind of questions your students will ask. Remember the questions you had as a novice? Be ready to encounter them again. Be prepared with some good examples that will illustrate the important and/or tricky concepts you need to teach. The simpler the better.

You've got the knowledge. Be patient and authentic and you'll have no trouble passing it along.

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps SSHE is better?

[/ QUOTE ]

perhaps

[Lawrence Ng]

What do you charge for lessons btw?

I charge 3/4 of my hourly poker rate at the 20/40 tables. Seems fair right?

Lawrence.

[MagikKid]

I think that the lessons, if taught properly, are worth far more. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Magik

[lighterjobs]

don't start them out with sshe. it will ruin them for life.

[CCraft_42]

Is SSHE Super System by Doyle?

[Gregg777]

Small Stakes Hold 'em: Winning Big with Expert Play by Ed Miller

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
don't start them out with sshe. it will ruin them for life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike said something like that above, as well. Why do you guys think that SSH can ruin beginning players?