My first posted hand. [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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kt421

02-07-2005, 03:50 AM

Well, this is my first hand posted here on 2+2, after much lurking and learning. I'm going to post two, actually, my best and worst hands (net) of tonight's session (thus far). I'm quite early into my foray into 2/4 after a few months at .5/1 and 1/2. Any comments are much appreciated.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. MP1 posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 (poster) checks, Hero calls, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, Button 3-bets, BB caps, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (28.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (7 players)
BB bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, Hero raises, MP3 folds, Button 3-bets, BB caps, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: (22.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, Button calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (30.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises, Button calls, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, Button calls, BB calls.

Final Pot: 42.25 BB

That one was, obviously, the best. I'm not sure there is much to say about the play (but if I'm wrong, please tell me), so what do you think the other guys had (BB is a maniac, in 90% of pots, pf raise 85%, but will fold to aggression back at him; button is loose but otherwise fairly solid)?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises, 4 folds, SB 3-bets, BB calls, Hero caps, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

River: (10.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

SB in this pot is the same maniac from the first hand. This guy is 98% VPIP and 77% PFR over 50 hands tracked. I don't think I'm leaving the table until he does.

Schizo

02-07-2005, 04:06 AM

Hand 1: fold PF, but rest is fine.

Hand 2: Fold flop, fold turn, fold river and that is not a hand you should be capping with PF. You played this hand horribly.

manpower

02-07-2005, 04:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: fold PF, but rest is fine.

Hand 2: Fold flop, fold turn, fold river and that is not a hand you should be capping with PF. You played this hand horribly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not so sure that's an easy fold in hand 1. There's already 3 limpers to him in mp with what appears to be a very loose table. If it there tends to be this much aggressing pf, then yeah it's an easy fold, but if it's unraised most of the time the I'd say it's a marginally profitable call.

In hand two, I don't think i'm capping pf with that limper coming along but capping isn't a horrible play against a 98% vpip player. That said, i'm not tremendously sure about what the best line post flop is against a guy like this.

rmarotti

02-07-2005, 04:24 AM

Me thinks it's an easy fold when it's two cold back to Hero.

Too weak tight?

manpower

02-07-2005, 04:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Me thinks it's an easy fold when it's two cold back to Hero.

Too weak tight?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno, I think it's pretty damn close. It's probably an easier fold in a more normal situation, but keep in mind one of these guys is a complete maniac and the other limped in on the button after 5 limpers only to reraise the guy in the bb. What I'm saying is, it's not really that likely that there are any monsters out there. We can't put mr. maniac on anything really, and the button seems pretty unlikely to have Aces or Kings by his play. So yeah, I'm sticking with call pf.

Nottom

02-07-2005, 09:38 AM

If somehow seeing the flop with QJo from MP for 4 bets is your best hand of the night, you have a lot to learn.

In hand 2, I don't see much reason for the preflop cap. Rest of the hand seems ok until the river. If you bet becasue you think that the BB will fold an A or baby pair after the LAG calls then it looks fine.

chief444

02-07-2005, 09:57 AM

Hand 1 the only question is preflop and I don't think it's horrible. But then I limp from CO or button with this and there is a poster. I'd still probably muck it from MP2 though.

Hand 2 I don't like the river bet. Other than that though it looks fine. With the read given I cap it preflop as well.

Chairman Wood

02-07-2005, 10:10 AM

First, put your reads before your hand.
Hand 1:
The initial preflop call could be considered loose. However with the limpers in front of you on what appears to be a loose table I think it's fine. Sucks you got caught in a big melee there but I also think it's fine when you called two cold back to you. POT WAS HUGE!!!
Rest of the hand good.
Hand 2:
Put this dude in your buddy list.
Even against this nutcase you don't want to be capping here with this hand.
Flop is fine
Turn you might be able to find a fold in as your K /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif are tainted.
River: Why are you doing this? Why not check behind?

chief444

02-07-2005, 10:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Even against this nutcase you don't want to be capping here with this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

"This guy is 98% VPIP and 77% PFR"

KJs is pretty far ahead of the average hand this guy is raising/3-betting here. This cap would be very standard for me, especially with BB still in. Why is everyone saying it is bad?

sean c

02-07-2005, 10:23 AM

Hand #2 I don't like the river cap and it is a flop fold but close and a turn fold for sure.

Chairman Wood

02-07-2005, 10:26 AM

I mainly didn't like it because BB was still in. I probably should have said that. Not heads up, BB cold calling 3 bet usually means a decent holding, probably better than KJ again though I wasn't at the table. Also simply, I'm just posting my thoughts, I'm thankful you think differently and I see your point.

sean c

02-07-2005, 10:29 AM

Chief I think the PF capp is tough with BB still in. That said I think post flop is where the hand was misplayed.

chief444

02-07-2005, 10:30 AM

If BB was very tight then I do see your point. I don't agree against an unknown but I understand what you're thinking.

My post wasn't just directed at you. I'm just very confused as to why so many people are saying the cap is bad in hand 2 when I look at it and it seems very good. Anyone else want to give their thoughts?

Derek in NYC

02-07-2005, 10:52 AM

Hand number 1 is badly misplayed.

1. Fold preflop. Calling the cap is not happy, but whatever, in for a penny in for a pound at that point.

2. Do not raise on the flop. Wait until the turn to raise. You have the aggressor to your right, and two players to your left you can force out. Your flop raise just handcuffs all draws to the pot, and even with top two, your hand is vulnerable to the board pairing 6s or the turn card, an ace or king falling (giving trips), etc. Protect your hand.

3. turn played fine

4. river fine since you hold the mortal nuts. I presume BB turns over JJ?

27offsooot

02-07-2005, 12:40 PM

Hand 1: I would fold PF, but I can see a call more easily if you're CO or button. The presence of a maniac at this table makes a fold easier. I don't want to play this hand for 2sb. HOwever, I don't think that u can fold PF when it's 2 back to u. 26:2 u can play two broadway connectors. I also don't put much stock in the button limp-reraise. Seems like some speculative hand, not AA/KK. By the way, I really hope that this hand was not your best played hand of the night. Clicking raise/ bet as often as possible usually doesn't qualify for me.

2: The cap is fine. Post-flop, i don't hate the river bet as much as others. Will u get sb to fold? Probably not, but bb could have ace high on a gutshot/ flush draw and making him fold could win this pot.

Schizo

02-07-2005, 02:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]

In hand 2, I don't see much reason for the preflop cap. Rest of the hand seems ok until the river. If you bet becasue you think that the BB will fold an A or baby pair after the LAG calls then it looks fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is calling here a good thing? You have 6 outs that may or may not be clean which translates to 3 outs. He is basically getting 12:1 pot odds on a 14:1 draw. On the turn he is getting 7.5:1 pot odds on a 14:1.

Why is everyone calling the flop and turn?

Schizo

02-07-2005, 02:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
2. Do not raise on the flop. Wait until the turn to raise. You have the aggressor to your right, and two players to your left you can force out. Your flop raise just handcuffs all draws to the pot, and even with top two, your hand is vulnerable to the board pairing 6s or the turn card, an ace or king falling (giving trips), etc. Protect your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone else agree with this?

sean c

02-07-2005, 03:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

In hand 2, I don't see much reason for the preflop cap. Rest of the hand seems ok until the river. If you bet becasue you think that the BB will fold an A or baby pair after the LAG calls then it looks fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is calling here a good thing? You have 6 outs that may or may not be clean which translates to 3 outs. He is basically getting 12:1 pot odds on a 14:1 draw. On the turn he is getting 7.5:1 pot odds on a 14:1.

Why is everyone calling the flop and turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Schizo I agree and I posted on this earlier.

27offsooot

02-07-2005, 04:41 PM

No.
3 reasons:
1. The pot before the flop is 28.5 sb. Even if it goes bet-call-call-call, that's 32.5 sb. Facing 4 sb when u raise the turn gives proper odds to gutshots still to see the river. I suppose u can get small pairs that could set up to fold by facing two big bets cold, but u will be giving them improper odds on the flop by just raising it then.
2. The button did re-raise PF, there is a good chance that he will raise the flop if u call and then those in b/t with draws will call one more or two if bb re-raises creating an even bigger pot.
3. You cannot be assured that BB will lead the turn especially if button raises. I suppose u can still c/r the button, but in general, i don't think u can be assured where the turn bet will come from.

This of course all depends on people understanding odds, but this pot size means most people are staying around with any reasonable draws regardless.

I am much in favor of ramming and jamming here.

27offsooot

02-07-2005, 04:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]

4. river fine since you hold the mortal nuts. I presume BB turns over JJ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahaha. Are you reading the same hand as I am in which the maniac BB did not 3-bet with the second nuts on the turn?

kt421

02-08-2005, 12:29 AM

Thanks for all the comments. In hand one, I realize that the initial call was a bit loose. I'm still struggling to tighten my PF game (the good news is that it is mostly working). After that, I essentially discounted the maniac's reraise because his pattern was to raise/re-raise PF with all hands. The button worried me, but once I had 2sb in and that large a potential pot, I had to see the flop. (Admittedly, I was repeating "queen, queen, jack" as the cards flipped).

What of my calling the button re-raise, BB 3-bet on the flop? No one has mentioned this call, but in hindsight I'm guessing I'm behind at least one hand, with only the jacks and queens as outs (and with jacks being questionable outs because of the risk that someone, likely the button, holding QQ).

For the curious, button turned over 66 for the sixes over queens. Maniac turns over Qx for the set of Queens (note that he only made that set on the river!).

On hand two, I tend to agree with the poster who said I played it horribly start to finish. Though given the table, the pf cap may not have been unduly horrible. Someone asked about my river bet - I saw checking as conceding the pot (figuring I was behind someone). But both guys in the pot had shown the ability to fold (yes, even the maniac, he often folded to aggression on the later streets, despite his PF/Flop play). Turns out only the maniac called me, and he took the pot with his pair of fives.

Thanks again for the input.

Oh, someone mentioned having a lot to learn if hand one was my best hand. I certainly do have a lot to learn, but I meant best in the sense of biggest pot, not most-well-played. Likely part of learning will be to internalize that "best" in poker shouldn't be results-oriented.

Schizo

02-08-2005, 12:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1. The pot before the flop is 28.5 sb.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are talking about hand 2, you are looking at hand 1.

27offsooot

02-08-2005, 01:10 AM

"Hand number 1 is badly misplayed.

1. Fold preflop. Calling the cap is not happy, but whatever, in for a penny in for a pound at that point.

2. Do not raise on the flop. Wait until the turn to raise. You have the aggressor to your right, and two players to your left you can force out. Your flop raise just handcuffs all draws to the pot, and even with top two, your hand is vulnerable to the board pairing 6s or the turn card, an ace or king falling (giving trips), etc. Protect your hand.

3. turn played fine

4. river fine since you hold the mortal nuts. I presume BB turns over JJ? "

Derek was talking about hand one, bringing up pt 2 on hand one. I believe you are mistaken. Does that quote even make sense for hand two?
Note: This is the problem with multiple hands per thread.

Schizo

02-08-2005, 01:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I believe you are mistaken.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya, you responded to me. And in the post just above yours is one of my posts talking about hand 2. I clicked on the my name to see what you were responding to. You were right, my bad.

27offsooot

02-08-2005, 01:26 AM

No worries, i just wish that people would stick to one post/ thread. That James tutoring post with 5 or 6 hands last week was so difficult to read yet had great content.

Nottom

02-08-2005, 02:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Why is calling here a good thing? You have 6 outs that may or may not be clean which translates to 3 outs. He is basically getting 12:1 pot odds on a 14:1 draw. On the turn he is getting 7.5:1 pot odds on a 14:1.

Why is everyone calling the flop and turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

He could easily be ahead of the LAG. The BB muddles things up, but you could be ahead and I'm not as concerned about my outs as you are, especially if you think the BB will fold an unimproved A on the river.

He's basically committing himself to see the river by putting in the 4th bet preflop (assuming the action doesn't clearly indicate otherwise.) This is one of the reasons I don't like the cap even against an uber LAG.

MattC

02-08-2005, 03:56 AM

my thoughts:
hand 1
preflop: like most think here, fold preflop when its capped. although at a passive table i think calling here after 3 limpers is arguably okay.

flop: i think call the 3 bet instead of capping. a person who raised after its been raised 2x to him is probably ahead of 2 pair here.

turn: raise a blank, be cautious with some scare cards. you could still be ahead and if you are you want bets in the pot for the drawers that are potentially out there. if not the pot is so big at this point if your still being reraised you can still try to draw to your boat.

river: fine.

hand 2:

preflop: why raise. your hand is a drawing hand, let others play with you. but most likely fold here, there are no callers so you might not be getting your odds for your draw and your easily dominated if you get raised from someone behind you.

flop: id prob fold it, even the ace drawing for a straight or outside flush is still better then your hand.

turn: fold or raise is the better option i see here. raise if you think you can buy the pot, otherwise fold your outs could be dirty and your probably behind. maniac could have anything and he could know that its very possible your just on overcards, in fact he probably doesnt even care.

river: you shouldnt be even playing this hand anymore at this stage in the hand. either you bought it or you folded.

i think your problem in hand 2 is your trying to play your opponent too much with the other player in the hand. yeh your hand looks pretty and all but your not playing solid, but rather just as recklessly as him. king high kinda crappy hand.

HajiShirazu

02-08-2005, 07:55 AM

I probably would have just folded preflop in hand 1. No sense doodling around with a crappy offsuit hand in what is going to be a large multiway pot. If I call the first bet, then get sucked into the second, I probably end up calling the last two and being worried that the button is a smart player with a real hand, but expecting flopping a Q or J to be good some of the time.
I don't think there's anything wrong with hand 2. I would cap every time, because KJs is pretty good against one random hand and one guy who probably would have capped if he had a real hand. On the turn it's thin, but you have position on the BB so you can avoid losing extra money if you catch one of your outs and it's bad, and you might have SB or both of them beat. If SB bets and BB folds, I think it's ugly, but you have to call with king high there because it's good at least some of the time against a 77% raiser. I don't know about the bluff on the river. I guess you don't have to fold a better hand too often for it to be right.