T8s, steal attempt -- I don't know about this one

[Nick C]

Villain is 34/0/1.2 after 47 hands.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

Thoughts?

[BigDan9]

I think you have to know your players pretty well to try stealing in that spot, with those cards, at small stakes (where bluffing just isn't as effective). Still, since you almost managed to steal the blinds and hit top pair on the flop, I'd say the mistake was raising on the turn.

If he's called a raise, called you on the river and then bet into you on the turn, I think you have to credit the Villain for something better than top pair + weak kicker (although it was poor play by him if he called just one other player, pre-flop, with a couple of low spades).

I'd let the hand go after his bet on the turn or, if you think there might just be a chance he really could be playing with a worse hand than yours, call and see what the river brings. Raising seems too aggressive in that situation to me.

[spydog]

I just call his turn bet. Raising and folding to a 3-bet costs the same as calling down, but you fail to get to showdown while 1) possibly being ahead and 2) having outs. If he's bluffing, then he may fold to your turn raise, which is bad.

[IndieMatty]

Dude, fold pre-flop. This is just an excuse to lag out. Steal attempts in MP in 2-4 are NOT a good idea.

Raising the turn is silly.

[djoyce003]

I think your chances of stealing from MP in a 2/4 game is close to zero. Given that is the case, you can maybe lower your raising standards to slightly worse hands, like queen 10 off, or something, but not 10 8.

[MoreWineII]

omg Super Tecmo Bowl!

Oh yah, I agree about the hand. If I were going to steal from MP3 in a SS game, I'd prefer a little more high card strengf. And I severely dislike the turn raise and subsequent fold.

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude, fold pre-flop. This is just an excuse to lag out. Steal attempts in MP in 2-4 are NOT a good idea.



[/ QUOTE ]

I recently played 2/4 during my challenge and found the tables on the weak-tight side. Based on the average table (from what I saw), I would openraise this from CO and the button.

I also play European daytime, which I think might be tighter.

But, reads would be helpful when posting this hand.

[Nick C]

For what it's worth, I was actually in the CO. I would have corrected it, but I didn't notice the converter had called me MP3.

I don't use the raise-fold line (or, in this case, free showdown raise, which is what I had in mind) as much as some others here, and I thought I might've picked a bad time (which has now been confirmed).

Should I have just called down after I got bet into on the turn?

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
And I severely dislike the turn raise and subsequent fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know I have top pair and a gutshot, but my feeling was the turn 3-bet indicated I was very likely behind, quite possibly to a made flush, straight, or set. (My opponent didn't really seem all that aggressive, usually.)

What do you have him on that I want to draw against? And do you think there's still a decent chance I'm ahead? (Do you think I should call unimproved on the river?)

[PokeHer]

The problem with steal raises (even ones that don't necessarily look like it) is that some people over defend their blinds and will raise and keep raising with nada. So, unless you are holding something that is very strong, i think it is best to play these hands conservatively, which means just call down if they lead out. call this weak tight if you want, but my feelings are that being overly aggro with marginal hands in this situation will end up costing you money in the long run.

[27offsooot]

It's been said b/f, but don't steal the blind from a 34 VPIP b/c he's calling. U can value raise Axo from CO, button, but 10 high doesn't do it for me.

[Bob T.]

Why don't you just call him down when he bets into you on the turn?

Same price as your play, and you get to see the showdown.

Raising seems awfully frisky with top pair, bad kicker.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
Why don't you just call him down when he bets into you on the turn?

Same price as your play, and you get to see the showdown.

Raising seems awfully frisky with top pair, bad kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that it was pretty frisky. My thinking at the time was that if he was semi-bluffing with a single spade, then I might not get a bet out of him on the river if he missed. I also thought he might checkraise the turn with a genuinely strong made hand, so I thought he also might be betting into what he thought were overcards with a pair that was worse than mine (maybe with a draw to go with it). What I was overlooking is that he might bet with a strong hand out of fear that I wouldn't, especially if he suspected I just had overcards and no spades. Also, if he began with an overpair or flopped something big, the third spade might have concerned him and convinced him to abandon his slowplay. I now think I wasn't as concerned by the turn bet as I should have been.

And while he would have a fair amount of outs if he were on overcards himself and was bluffing the three-flush board (in which case it wouldn't be a tragedy to get him to fold and would in fact be good if he planned just to take a single stab at the pot with a turn bet and then give up unimproved), there is a good chance that he would fire again on the river if he missed. And the same is the case for a turned flush draw.

In any event, one lesson I'm taking away from this posted hand is that, if I'm going to try to steal with hands like T8s, I need to do a better job with them postflop than I did this time around.