AK facing 3 bets in SB. Fold, cap, or call? Then what? [Archive]

spydog

01-24-2005, 01:34 PM

Both opponents are TAGs.

I thought about mucking this preflop. Is this the spot where AKo needs to be tossed?

I was going to fold the flop unless I spiked a K or A. But, for only 1 bet I'm calling this with my backdoor nut flush/straight draws + overcards.

Turn is interesting. Should I fold? I think I might be chopping at best. 3-betting doesn't gain me anything, as MP2 is likely drawing very thin or is way ahead. He will 3-bet if he's ahead and I can dump without investing any more bets. If he's behind, he may fold to my 3-bet. And, if the button has AA or QQ, he'll just cap my ass.

I called the river for the same reason I called the turn raise.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 raises, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button 3-bets, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 caps, Button calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (17 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, Button calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: (10 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Button raises, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

River: (16 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, Button bets, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 19 BB

Aces McGee

01-24-2005, 01:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I was going to fold the flop unless I spiked a K or A. But, for only 1 bet I'm calling this with my backdoor nut flush/straight draws + overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why'd you change your mind? If you don't flop an ace or king, you're going to have overcards. You're pretty likely to have a backdoor straight draw (all you need is a jack, queen or ten to flop).

In other words, preflop, you decided to fold this flop, and then when this flop came, you decided to call. Why? Does the backdoor nut flush draw add THAT much value to your hand? Especially against two tight aggressive players and a preflop cap?

-McGee

J.R.

01-24-2005, 01:48 PM

Some preflop thoughts (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=406064&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=1&vc=1)

GOT's original post (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=396824& Forum=f3&Words=%2Bpreflop%20%2Bcheck&Searchpage=0& Limit=500&Main=396824&Search=true&where=bodysub&Na me=2926&daterange=1&newerval=5&newertype=y&olderva l=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post396824)

Keep in mind the rake and blind structure are more favorable, the preflop raising standards are probably wider in the 15-30 game and being live (at least the fictitous version), reads may be easier.

I would fold against two TAGs in your case given 3-6's tighter raising standards, two TAGs, and the more unfavorable blind and rake structures.

adamstewart

01-24-2005, 01:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Both opponents are TAGs.

I thought about mucking this preflop. Is this the spot where AKo needs to be tossed?

I was going to fold the flop unless I spiked a K or A. But, for only 1 bet I'm calling this with my backdoor nut flush/straight draws + overcards.

Turn is interesting. Should I fold? I think I might be chopping at best. 3-betting doesn't gain me anything, as MP2 is likely drawing very thin or is way ahead. He will 3-bet if he's ahead and I can dump without investing any more bets. If he's behind, he may fold to my 3-bet. And, if the button has AA or QQ, he'll just cap my ass.

I called the river for the same reason I called the turn raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Regarding what I have bolded above: You see how one bad decision snowballs into another ?? /images/graemlins/mad.gif

You've already said both your opponents are TAGs. Therefore, FOLD AKo PREFLOP when it's 3 bets to you. (But cap with AKs).

Adam

spydog

01-24-2005, 01:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was going to fold the flop unless I spiked a K or A. But, for only 1 bet I'm calling this with my backdoor nut flush/straight draws + overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why'd you change your mind? If you don't flop an ace or king, you're going to have overcards. You're pretty likely to have a backdoor straight draw (all you need is a jack, queen or ten to flop).

In other words, preflop, you decided to fold this flop, and then when this flop came, you decided to call. Why? Does the backdoor nut flush draw add THAT much value to your hand? Especially against two tight aggressive players and a preflop cap?

-McGee

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm getting 19:1 on my call, essentially closing the action. Yes UTG+1 could CR, but I didn't think this was likely. I think I have to call this. Not even an option, really.

PokerBob

01-24-2005, 02:07 PM

I am not opposed to mucking this preflop. You are out of position, and at best you are a little behind preflop. You may be drawing to chop. That said, I cap that mofo preflop.

Aces McGee

01-24-2005, 02:08 PM

Keep in mind that spiking an A or K might not be good enough and that you are not closing the action.

But that's not the point of my post. The point of my post is that you decided, after calling the cap preflop, "I'm going to fold if the flop comes Q82."

Then, the flop came Q82. And instead of folding, you called.

Why'd you changed your mind?

-McGee

Entity

01-24-2005, 02:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Both opponents are TAGs.

I thought about mucking this preflop. Is this the spot where AKo needs to be tossed?

I was going to fold the flop unless I spiked a K or A. But, for only 1 bet I'm calling this with my backdoor nut flush/straight draws + overcards.

Turn is interesting. Should I fold? I think I might be chopping at best. 3-betting doesn't gain me anything, as MP2 is likely drawing very thin or is way ahead. He will 3-bet if he's ahead and I can dump without investing any more bets. If he's behind, he may fold to my 3-bet. And, if the button has AA or QQ, he'll just cap my ass.

I called the river for the same reason I called the turn raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Regarding what I have bolded above: You see how one bad decision snowballs into another ?? /images/graemlins/mad.gif

You've already said both your opponents are TAGs. Therefore, FOLD AKo PREFLOP when it's 3 bets to you. (But cap with AKs).

Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I'd be more inclined to call with AKs, to see if TAG #1 caps.

Interesting hand -- glad to add a little bit more knowledge to my game.

Rob

mtdoak

01-24-2005, 02:18 PM

If you are going to see the flop (which you should), your plan should not be to fold unless you are facing more than one bet (or its a board where your overcards have little or no value). Your getting 19-1 on your call. With implied odds, you should be calling with as little as two overcards in this situation.

spydog

01-24-2005, 02:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Keep in mind that spiking an A or K might not be good enough and that you are not closing the action.

But that's not the point of my post. The point of my post is that you decided, after calling the cap preflop, "I'm going to fold if the flop comes Q82."

Then, the flop came Q82. And instead of folding, you called.

Why'd you changed your mind?

-McGee

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I had to reevaluate after the flop, and the backdoor flush draw was enough to make this a call.

MercTec

01-24-2005, 02:25 PM

Lemme just try and take a stab at hand reading....
Button has QQ or AK
MP2 has JJ

Close?

spydog

01-24-2005, 02:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to see the flop (which you should), your plan should not be to fold unless you are facing more than one bet (or its a board where your overcards have little or no value). Your getting 19-1 on your call. With implied odds, you should be calling with as little as two overcards in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both my opponents are TAGs. The first one raises from EP. It can be assumed he has a good hand. The second one 3-bets. It can be assumed he has a great hand (TT+, AQs+, AKo, KQs) with great probability. I want to fold, but thought 'crap, I've never folded AK preflop, so I'll call and see how strong the initial raiser's hand is'. Well, he caps, so he probably has an awesome hand (AKs, QQ+). So, I'm basically looking for a straight or flush draw to continue on the flop. Had the flop not come with a backdoor flushdraw, I fold this, even with 2 overcards getting 19:1. Do you see why?

TripleH68

01-24-2005, 02:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Both opponents are TAGs.

I thought about mucking this preflop. Is this the spot where AKo needs to be tossed?

I was going to fold the flop unless I spiked a K or A. But, for only 1 bet I'm calling this with my backdoor nut flush/straight draws + overcards.

Turn is interesting. Should I fold? I think I might be chopping at best. 3-betting doesn't gain me anything, as MP2 is likely drawing very thin or is way ahead. He will 3-bet if he's ahead and I can dump without investing any more bets. If he's behind, he may fold to my 3-bet. And, if the button has AA or QQ, he'll just cap my ass.

I called the river for the same reason I called the turn raise.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 raises, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button 3-bets, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 caps, Button calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (17 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, Button calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: (10 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Button raises, Hero?

[/ QUOTE ]

Once you get to the turn the range of hands you are behind seems too small to fold(AA,AQ,QQ).

Going back to preflop, I think being out of position does make folding a possible option against tighter raisers who will slow down quickly postflop if they feel they are behind.

adamstewart

01-24-2005, 06:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to see the flop (which you should), your plan should not be to fold unless you are facing more than one bet (or its a board where your overcards have little or no value). Your getting 19-1 on your call. With implied odds, you should be calling with as little as two overcards in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ever hear of "Reverse Implied Odds?"

Adam