Another 200NL UB hand

[jimdmcevoy]

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG ($243.05)
UTG+1 ($205)
MP1 ($194)
MP2 ($225.25)
MP3 ($213.55)
CO ($142.60)
Button ($93.20)
<font color="#C00000">SB ($114.95)</font>
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($203.70)</font>

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls $2, MP2 calls $2, MP3 calls $2, CO calls $2, Button folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($12) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $8</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $20</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, SB calls $12.

Turn: ($52) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($52) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $30</font>, Hero calls $30.

Final Pot: $112

I'm posting some not-that-interesting hands since I want to find out as soon as possible if I'm making mistakes at these new limits for me.

Is this line routine?

[zaxx19]

Uh, why didnt yu fire a shell on the turn??

I mean if you are gonna call the river....after kings pair...why not use that 30 on the turn and see where you are at??

[jimdmcevoy]

Because there was a chance he hit a flush, and a smaller chance that he hit a straight. I don't think I will get him to lay down a better hand than top trips, so I figure checking the turn and calling the river will win more money than betting the turn and checking the river.

As In I might get some of his bluff money.

Also, I am in a bad spot if he checkraises the turn or pulls a stop-n-go on the river.

[theredpill]

YOu find any dummies at that limit ?

[jimdmcevoy]

Unfortunatly no /images/graemlins/frown.gif

I've seen a few bad plays, but no horrible plays yet.

[BobboFitos]

I'd bet the turn

[BobboFitos]

(as to why you didn't bet the turn)

[ QUOTE ]
Because there was a chance he hit a flush, and a smaller chance that he hit a straight. I don't think I will get him to lay down a better hand than top trips, so I figure checking the turn and calling the river will win more money than betting the turn and checking the river.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're not betting as a bluff (getting him to lay down a better hand) and you dont care if he c/r's you. (Vs a flush you only have 4 reliable outs, the king is shady) If you had the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif I'd probably check. I doubt he has a flush, anyways, it's rare for a SB to lead out into that much of a field w/ hearts (they'd be low hearts) on a board like that. MAYBE something like QJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif, but the turn dispels that notion. And I think QJh pushes the flop. Anyways...

You're betting for value vs a weaker ten, (very possible) long king, (very possible) and you can fold to a c/r. Unless it's a min c/r, in which case I'd get angry, pray to hit my full boat so I can bust this motha fucka.

I think you're ahead far too much on the turn, plus, there are a bunch of cards on the river which could hard your hand. (Well... Not too many. really just the K and another heart, except for the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif I guess)

Hope it worked out, I doubt he's value betting a flush on a two pair board, so I think he had Kx here. Maybe KQ, actually. My bet is KQ. But I wouldn't rule out alot of hands.

[jimdmcevoy]

[ QUOTE ]

You're betting for value vs a weaker ten, (very possible) long king, (very possible) and you can fold to a c/r.


[/ QUOTE ]

I get a call from a king? Maybe I guess, but would he call the river too with just a K? If he doesn't call the river then I think check turn bet/call river wins more money.

Anyways, if I bet turn and he calls, I assume I bet the river too? I guess that's ok, but would it be any better than checking the turn and raising the river if he has the ten? The only risk here is about a 25% a card comes down that kills the action (like it did in this case).

So I guess what I'm asking is, besides a bad river card, where am I giving up any value by checking the turn?

[BobboFitos]

DAMNIT. I replied then my internet went down. Ok...

[ QUOTE ]
I get a call from a king? Maybe I guess, but would he call the river too with just a K? If he doesn't call the river then I think check turn bet/call river wins more money.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you bet 1/2 pot on turn a king may or may not call you. But whether they fold or call, it's better then allowing them to see a free river. A few resons:
1. By checking the turn, a king wont "bluff" the river, but MAY call a small bet. (They'd be in a check-call river mode) So if they'd fold the turn but call a small bet on the river, yes, you lose value by betting the turn
2. If they have something like Kx X /images/graemlins/heart.gif you're giving them 10 (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) free outs to beat you. That's too many. If your opponent will call a bet in this spot, perfect.
3. You lose value from weaker tens, because, once the river hits, assuming it's *not* an action killer, you can NOT raise his river bet. I'm going to repeat this: You can't raise w/ trips tens/ace kicker on that board. Unless they'd call with worse tens.

However, by betting the turn, you build the pot so you wont need to raise the river to get the same amount of money in.


On the river, it's unlikely, although possible, he's betting tens full for value. It's alot more likely he has KKKTT. I would be shocked if he was betting a flush or straight, as well. Unless he thought you'd call w/ ace high.

I hope I got the same stuff down as I initially wrote, I dont want to glaze anything over.

[jimdmcevoy]

[ QUOTE ]

3. You lose value from weaker tens, because, once the river hits, assuming it's *not* an action killer, you can NOT raise his river bet. I'm going to repeat this: You can't raise w/ trips tens/ace kicker on that board. Unless they'd call with worse tens.


[/ QUOTE ]

My plan was to raise his bet with a non-action killer river card. I guess I didn't give it much thought, but you may be right that this is not EV+.

Well if I'm not going to raise his river bet then betting the turn does look a lot better than checking, I'm coming around to what you are saying.

hmmmmm......

you don't think he'll call a river raise with a worse ten after I checked the turn?

Anyway, he had T8.

Btw I much appreciate your posts, I can use all the help I can get right now, I'm breaking even so far at this limit... (although I've only played about 700 hands, so that doesn't mean much)

[VanVeen]

Yes, bet the turn.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
you don't think he'll call a river raise with a worse ten after I checked the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he does, than your line has alot more meritt. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Generally, this is how the hand should play out, to a non action killer:
a. If he has a king, he'll check and call a small bet, hoping you have exactly QJ or a weaker king.
b. If he has a ten, he theoretically should make a blocker, as only a flush or full boat can raise him.
c. If he has a flush himself, he would make a nice value bet, probably more than w/ a ten, expecting all trips to pay it off.
d. If he has a straight, he's very worried about a flush and full boat, so he'll probably check and hope you make a value bet w/ a ten to snap off
e. If he has a full boat, he might make the same bet as w/ trips, but this time if you raise, he'll push...

Of course, that's theoretical, and not always what happens. If you raise the river, generally, he folds all hands that you beat and will raise or call with ones you dont beat. Unless he folds flushes in that spot, in which case raising w/ the trips is actually a bluff. But a villain wont call w/ trips AND fold a flush, and sometimes they wont do either.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, he had T8.


[/ QUOTE ]

Given the river, I really dont like his river bet. What do you think? I mean, you wouldn't call a bet with a flush on a two pair board? Or w/ ace high?

[ QUOTE ]
Btw I much appreciate your posts, I can use all the help I can get right now, I'm breaking even so far at this limit... (although I've only played about 700 hands, so that doesn't mean much)

[/ QUOTE ]

700 isnt much, so keep trucking, seems as you'll be fine. It took me a while to do well at 200 NL. Just as I was getting the hang of it I switched to Party... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[pho75]

stop-n-go. I've seen that used a couple of times now. What is that?

[jimdmcevoy]

Stop-n-go refers to when you call some ones bet/raise when you are out of position, and then on the next street you bet out. I like to do this when I'm out of position and I have a decent hand on the flop, and I suspect my opponent is betting/raising a draw. I flat call, and if the turn bricks, I bet out.

I imagine it's used a lot more in limit than no limit.

[jimdmcevoy]

Thanks again for your analysis.

And I agree, the only thing is river bet has a chance of doing is bluffing me out of a split pot, I think it's bad bet by him. There's no way I'm calling with less, I considered folding this hand.

[ QUOTE ]

700 isnt much, so keep trucking, seems as you'll be fine. It took me a while to do well at 200 NL. Just as I was getting the hang of it I switched to Party...


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the encouragment, there seems to be a fair difference between 100NL and 200NL.