Book advice needed

[AKhearts]

I've read through most of the posts here in this section and have come across alot of posts saying that SSH and Advanced HoldEm are the best books to read. I have read Advanced HoldEm but am not too interested in reading SSH. I was hoping someone could give me some advice on some other books I could read as a Low-Mid Limit HoldEm player. Anything is appreciated.
AKHearts

[BarronVangorToth]

Unless you have some personal grudge against Ed Miller* and don't want him to get any royalties off your nickel, I have no idea why you wouldn't want to read Small Stakes Hold 'em as it is one of the most (if not THE most) revolutionary books out there for the low limit player. It's helped my 5/10 10/20 and 20/40 game immensely -- and I'm sure the same is true for thousands of others. Buy it. Read it. Then read it a bunch more times.

Make sure to also read The Theory of Poker and Hold 'em Poker (just because you already read Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players does NOT mean you shouldn't also read this gem).

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

* In fact, EVEN if you have some hatred for the man, get over it -- his book will make you money, plain and simple, paying for itself time and time again EVERY session you play.

[AKhearts]

No hatred pal but that book is too loose for me. Just looking for an answer to my question. Thanks for the info on the other books. By the way who is Ed Miller anyway?
AKhearts

[Niediam]

Winning Low Limit Holdem by Lee Jones. You probably won't win all that much money but you will get to fold tons of hands. You will love it!

[KenProspero]

[ QUOTE ]
You probably won't win all that much money but you will get to fold tons of hands. You will love it!

[/ QUOTE ]

Congratualtions -- I literally when into hysterics, spewing coffee all over my keyboard when I read this. (And this from someone who thinks more highly of WLLH than you do).

To the OP, you could also try Hilger's Internet Texas Hold'Em. But dont give up on SSH.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
No hatred pal but that book is too loose for me. Just looking for an answer to my question. Thanks for the info on the other books. By the way who is Ed Miller anyway?
AKhearts

[/ QUOTE ]


Who is Ed Miller besides being the guy who wrote (co-wrote, to be precise, in whatever quantity he contributed vs. David and Mason who also have credit on the book, if you're looking for sheer name value) what I believe is one of the finest books ever written on poker for the limits most of us are playing.

As someone who owns and has read dozens and dozens of (horrible) poker books, I'm saying this as someone who hasn't just, I don't know, simply read a book or two.

Yes, he is a bit "looser" than most of the weak-tight advice you'll get. That's part of the problem with most books, and why I was a far worse player six months ago than I am today -- too much weak-tight.

Weak-tight worked five years ago. It doesn't anymore, not to any great success beyond "breaking even."

But, whatever, you're free to buy or not buy anything you want. Anyone who doesn't buy SSH is quite frankly only hurting themselves, no matter what they think to the contrary.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
Winning Low Limit Holdem by Lee Jones. You probably won't win all that much money but you will get to fold tons of hands. You will love it!

[/ QUOTE ]


The newest version of this book is actually a lot better -- it still has some problems, but while the first edition was rife with them, the newer text is a solid book, if you can self-edit out the problems still contained therein.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[Kurwood Derby]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No hatred pal but that book is too loose for me. Just looking for an answer to my question. Thanks for the info on the other books. By the way who is Ed Miller anyway?
AKhearts

[/ QUOTE ]


Who is Ed Miller besides being the guy who wrote (co-wrote, to be precise, in whatever quantity he contributed vs. David and Mason who also have credit on the book, if you're looking for sheer name value) what I believe is one of the finest books ever written on poker for the limits most of us are playing.

As someone who owns and has read dozens and dozens of (horrible) poker books, I'm saying this as someone who hasn't just, I don't know, simply read a book or two.

Yes, he is a bit "looser" than most of the weak-tight advice you'll get. That's part of the problem with most books, and why I was a far worse player six months ago than I am today -- too much weak-tight.

Weak-tight worked five years ago. It doesn't anymore, not to any great success beyond "breaking even."

But, whatever, you're free to buy or not buy anything you want. Anyone who doesn't buy SSH is quite frankly only hurting themselves, no matter what they think to the contrary.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[/ QUOTE ]

Now instead of being "weak-tight" all Ed Miller's acolytes are "strong-broke". But at least they have fun posting all their losing plays on 2+2.

[cain06]

I agree with everyone out here, read SSHE - it will give you a much better insight into these typical loose/aggressive (idiotic) games. No knowledge is bad knowledge. Hilger's book is OK, but annoying to read because he has so much information on every page. TOP is a definite read. I like Brunson's Super System a lot and it is a great read for entertainment purposes as well.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
Now instead of being "weak-tight" all Ed Miller's acolytes are "strong-broke". But at least they have fun posting all their losing plays on 2+2.

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm wondering where specifically you have found his advice to not work? I know from personal experience (my own and with friends of mine) that his advice works phenomenally not only in Las Vegas, but California, upstate New York, Mississippi, Connecticut, not to mention online at the various popular sites -- not only at various low limit (5/10 - 20/40) games, but at No Limit cash games as well.

Weak-tight advice is somewhat profitable (I played for years playing weak-tight ... I'm still far too weak-tight on occasion when I forget newer lessons on how the game has evolved), but it's not going to pay off big with all of this hyper-aggressive players that are literally playing everywhere that I've played in the last year.

However, absolutely, there could be parts of the country where it doesn't work. What state are you playing in where you have found his specific lessons to be not worth applying?

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[Joe B.]

what problems on WWLH is there?

what pages and whats the correction on it. thanks

[BarronVangorToth]

Obviously the first edition was riddled with problems (hence the need for the second edition and the apologies from the author, who was man enough to own up to said mistakes, which he deserves mad credit for).

However, I still don't agree with some the advice from the second edition, but since his review was more comprehensive than my own would be, I'll simply link to Mason's review of the 2nd edition:

Mason's Review (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=450677&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=all&vc)

If you don't want to wade through all of those reviews, here is the section that I think covers everything that I likewise had a problem with:

*

Jones continues to stress that when you hold a good hand to get as many bets in on the flop as possible. He doesn’t seem to understand that in loose low limit games where the pots frequently become relatively large that alternate strategies which have the potential to knock players out on a later street are often far superior. Also, by not playing fast on the flop you may save bets if the scare card does come or be able to collect extra double size bets on fourth street.

Another inconsistency is that on one hand the author wants to get as many bets as possible in on the flop to punish the draws but he also recommends that you “bet or raise your draws for value.” Well you can’t have it both ways, and Jones doesn’t seem to recognize the difference.

A final area where this version is still weak has to do with play on the turn and the river. Play on these streets is much more complex that the author seems to realize and correct strategy should often be impacted on what happened earlier in the hand. This “linkage” is an idea that doesn’t seem to ever be considered.

*

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[AKhearts]

Thanks for everyones advice on books. I will try them all and see what I think....It looks like Ill be busy for quite awhile.
AKhearts

[Ed Miller]

No hatred pal but that book is too loose for me. Just looking for an answer to my question. Thanks for the info on the other books.

The book doesn't advocate "loose" play. It advocates playing loosely or tightly depending on the size of the pot.

For instance, say you were playing online and you were in the 100 millionth hand of InternetPoker.com. They are adding $25,000 to the pot for this hand only, and the stakes are $1-$2. How loosely would you play?

Hopefully you'd play any hand before the flop, no matter how many times the pot was raised... and you'd play nearly every hand all the way to the river. When you are betting $1 and $2 to win $25,000, it's worth it to stay around on the longest of longshots. That's pretty damn loose.

Now, if the pot had only $3 in it, you'd play far more tightly. You should even fold some hands that seem fairly good like A /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif... or perhaps T /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif on a Q /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif flop (depending on the action, of course). You would never fold those hands with $25,000 in the pot.

When the pot is somewhere in between... $10, $20, or $40, for instance... you have to tailor your loose/tight play accordingly. Small Stakes Hold 'em is a book designed to help you learn to do that correctly.

As a side effect, some of the play I advise for partiularly large pots... say a $30 or $40 pot in our $1-$2 game... seems, to some, like idiot's play. It seems way too loose. But it's not... the pot size determines your looseness.

Just think how much looser still you'd play if there were $25,000 in the pot just waiting for you to catch perfect-perfect.

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
Now instead of being "weak-tight" all Ed Miller's acolytes are "strong-broke". But at least they have fun posting all their losing plays on 2+2.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, which author do you suggest to make more $/hand at the low limit games, say anything up to and including 20/40.

I know that Miller is making me way more money than Jones, Krieger or Ciaffone ever did.