Cash from pocket as a raise?

[RyanTaylor]

This is a question of whether or not cash can be played from the pocket in a game where chips have to be purchased. The situation from which the question arose is this:

5 person game, $1/2 blinds, no limit

I hold /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif10 in BB
Next two people fold
Button (loose, position player) calls with rags
SB (very loose agressive) limps with /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gifK

flop is /images/graemlins/diamond.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/club.gif4

SB raises $3
I call
Button folds

Turn is inconsequential

SB bets $5
I call to give the illusion of holding Ace high (a hand ive become popular for winning with)

River helps no one

BB puts me all in (about $15)
I call, but stand up and raise $65 cash from my wallet.
BB puts me on a bluff and calls
I show my 4 of a kind, he is completely broke.

So, once again, can I use cash in a chip game? Was I allowed to raise from my wallet and was the BB required to protect the his chips with outside cash? The agreement in our game is that he could have told me no outside cash, but was allowed to call my cash bet at his discretion. Any opinions?

[guller]

I don't like it. You should have been all in. Table stakes is the way to go, what's on the table is it.

If he would have reraised you more money than you had in your wallet would you have to fold the hand?

Gull

[dingoeater]

As its a home game and ye play it that its at his discretion to accept the bet or not, then you're perfectly entitled to do it in my oipinion.

[YTV]

No cash should come out of anyones pockets. If money is on the table with your chips BEFORE the deal, that can be used.

[aaronjacobg]

I think that it should be allowed but it should be completely separate from the betting in the hand. Like a prop bet, he could say, "I bet that the five card hand that i can make with my down cards is better than yours." The hand itself is done and the hand can no longer be folded due to a bet but more bets can happen.

Jake

[RunDownHouse]

Why didn't you go to the ATM real quick to get even more cash than you had on you?

[Jersey Nick]

[ QUOTE ]
The agreement in our game is that he could have told me no outside cash, but was allowed to call my cash bet at his discretion.

[/ QUOTE ]
And here is where the point lays - if the house (in this case "our game") says you can, then you can. The term "table stakes" means that you can only bet the chips you have on the table. I personally prefer table stakes but my (our) opinions doesn't really matter, since your game doesn't play table stakes.

[Gbob]

Gotta agree with the other posters that house rules determine what's acceptable, but my view is that this is a bad play. The chips in front of you should be the only money in play. To bring in extra money out of your pocket seems to me to the equivalent of brining in extra money to a monopoly game. House rules may allow it, but that doesn't make it right.

Now is it was purely a side bet (ie money in your pocket against money from his pocket) then I have less objections, but if you took his chips out of play that other players could have won, than you gave yourself an unfair advantage.

Then again, how many folks bet into us when you're holding 4 of a kind? Your exuberance can be, I feel, easily forgiven. The other players should have raised the objection.

[smoore]

If it's allowed by the house rules, it's allowed. Because you posted it I imagine that some tension arose. I would bring up a recommendation for going to table stakes at the next game.

[Mojo Tooth]

Big-bet poker (no-limit and pot limit) MUST be table stakes. Any other way is just completely unfair. If you have money that you want to wager with, then that money must be available for other people to see and attack (or avoid) should they choose to do so.

Picture the following scenario.

- Player A has only six dollars in chips remaining, but has $100 in his pocket.

- Player B has forty dollars in chips remaining and nothing in his pocket and is in the big blind.

- Player A doubles the blind and everybody folds to player B, who sees player A only has a couple bucks left so he knows his exposure is limited. He has no way of knowing how much cash B has hidden away, and if he asks, that gives a lot of information to B.

- Player A and B both get a piece of the flop, so A bets out. Suddenly B draws a Benjamin out of his pocket and slams it on the table. A would never have played the hand if he had realized that money was in play.

Now, of course it was heads-up and your opponent could have refused to honor the cash portion of your bet. At this point you're just getting into generally skeezy territory where someone might, on the spur of the moment, pull out more money than they can really afford to risk and put it on the table.

In limit poker, at least, someone could be allowed to call (not raise) out of their pocket, simply because their potential exposure is limited. But for NL and PL, it's just a bad bad bad idea in my opinion.

[Accident]

I always establish the House Rules at my house. Only chips play. Unlimited buy-in between hands. "come on fellas, I have $80,000 in chips value here if you want to buy a few chips". So, the smart ones in the group have begun buying a black chip to go w/the $40 min buy in, just in case. I always buy in for at least 100 more than anyone else.
I played at another guys house where cash on the table played along w/the chips. He only had .50 chips. No problem as long as everyone knows the rules. IMO.
A /images/graemlins/club.gif

[SCfuji]

table stakes = no cash from pocket. you've been watching too many 'survival' commercials haven't you?

[ky70]

IMO, that is a side wager made between players that has nothing to do with the game (sometimes we have guys who have been eliminated betting on who will be last remaining player) and that cash should not be added to the chip money of the game in any way...it should go straight into someone's pocket

I would pass on that type of stuff though...it just opens the door for problems that you don't want. In a standing "friendly" home game, I just don't see the long term value in this move

[TomCollins]

If you aren't playign table stakes, what happens if you can't cover a bet?

It makes sense to have a $1 stack and have the rest in your pocket. You can never be forced to call anything then!

[TenPercenter]

[ QUOTE ]
If you aren't playign table stakes, what happens if you can't cover a bet?

[/ QUOTE ]


you go all-in for less,in other words the other guy gets change from his bet.



[ QUOTE ]
It makes sense to have a $1 stack and have the rest in your pocket. You can never be forced to call anything then!

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, but you are also limited to pots based on the size of your stack. if you get a monster hand, all you can bet is $1! chip stack size=power in most cases. you want more money on the table for many reasons.

ten

[Mojo Tooth]

I think you misunderstood illustrious Mr. Collins, Ten. He's arguing that if you aren't playing table stakes, then that means you can have cash in pocket that is never at risk unless you want it to be. And he's right.

It's table-stakes or nothing. If you want a side bet, fine, but don't expect any help from the host or any of the other players on enforcing it.

[RunDownHouse]

Jesus, thanks to the "illustrious" Tom for bumping this thread after a month. The lesson to be learned here: don't be a douchebag when it comes to either taking out your credit card at a table or bumping threads.

Can a mod just lock this thread or something?

[lighterjobs]

if you have cash on the table (ie: a $100 bill under a stack of chips) it should be able to play as long as it was on the table before the hand started.

[REL18]

I have great idea ill always have the regular amount on table but then cary 5g in my hand every time i make absolute nuts and be like oh i raise 5g more

[TwinTowers]

Would a limit game have changed anyone's opinion. I was at a call you own game last month where low spade in the hole split the pot.

With a $2 max bet, I needed to buy more chips once I realized I had the Ace of spades and two other players had huge hands. I bought $10 in chips and didnt think twice about it.

[theRealMacoy]

table stakes only way to fly
otherwise the bettor is risking nothing
and gaining when they hit

I suggest people re-buy when they get near the nub
and sutlely remind them of the table stakes

later
the Real Macoy

[guller]

You shouldn't be allowed to buy chips mid-hand for this reason exactly. Chips should be purchased between hands only, limit or no limit.

[Arsene Lupin III]

No offense, but I think you should read Robert's rules before you ask such a dumb question.