I'm Playing Weak Aren't I

[Skip Brutale]

4 handed I have 1800 chips, player to my right has 800 chips, the other two stacks are about even. This is the last hand of 100/200 and 800 chip guy is UTG. He moves all-in and I fold ATs. After I did it I was thinking of the range of hands he is probably pushing here and felt like a retard.

I am, a retard right. Arguing for a fold there is only for the sake of being argumentative isn't it. Totaly weak.

[goldseraph]

I think its reasonable but it depends how the pusher has played all game

[Irieguy]

You're pretty smart for a retard. First you post the question of the year, then you make a correct fold when most would call off half their stack when the blinds are just about to matter.

Irieguy

[Skip Brutale]

Well I'm glad I did something right in my play tonight. Can you elaborate any on why that's a good fold. Seeing that the next hand he'll have almost half his stack in the bb I assumed the range of hands he's pushing aren't as good as ATs. Is there a concept I'm missing?

Also Irieguy, I have a post called what to do on a missed flop on step 4 or 5 or some title like that. About what to do durring 50/100 or 100/200 when you aren't in all-in mode and make a raise, one person calls and the flop misses you but comes with 2 high cards. And a bluff would pot commit you. I guess you don't even have to go to that post now. Any suggestions for me?

[Gramps]

If you fold, you have 1600 and UTG 1100. Even if folds his blinds, he still has a little fold equity. You have an advantage on him, but not huge. Certainly no lock on 3rd.

If you call and lose, you're down to 1,000, and UTG now has 1900. Even in this worse case scenario, 3rd place is not lost. He has a good edge, but no lock on 3rd. You still have fold equity if you fold your SB. Plus, you've had the opportunity (probably > 50%) to knock him out, lock up 3rd at worst, and have enough chips to battle for 1st/2nd.

His fold equity is about to be lost if he folds his UTG. A lot of players will push some pretty crappy hands in his spot. ATs has got to be a least a small favorite (and maybe more). If you win, 3rd is locked and now you're in contention for top two.

I'd argue it's a very clear call. It's a pretty damn good opportunity - high reward, and some (but not huge) risk, and you're a favorite on average in the hand. The alternative - giving UTG and his worse hand 300 chips and his fold equity back for free - isn't very attractive.

[WarDekar]

I tend to agree. If he has a better hand so be it, you got a bit unlucky that he got a good hand in the perfect spot. If I were him I'd be pushing almost anything with the blinds increasing trying to steal from you, and I love when people fold those situations to me. You have to call here IMO, Gramps laid out the possible scenarios very well. Even if it's a straight coinflip 50/50 on the hand, 50% of the time you're guaranteed 3rd with a decent shot at better, and 50% of the time you STILL have another 30-40% chance of making it ITM. I think you have to call here.

[two_dogs]

I don't think you should forget that there are two players left to act with bigger stacks. If they call or push what do you do then?

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you should forget that there are two players left to act with bigger stacks. If they call or push what do you do then?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, are there two stacks left to act?

Or are you in the BB?

This is vital. In the BB, last to act, I call this in a flash. On the button, it would be completely dependent on my read of the players.

[two_dogs]

Yes he said player to his right was utg which means he is utg+1. I agree it does depend on the read of the other players.

[Mystic]

The poster is on the button. The two big stacks are yet to act. This is what I understand from the original post.

If this was a two card game, I would push all-in, fairly confident I've got the winning hand. However, as it is a five (well, seven) card game, I would realise that against his range of possible hands (which could be almost all hands) I am no more than a 55-60% favourite, and I would make the correct decision to fold.

Simple really!

Mystic

[rachelwxm]

I agree that UTG is losing his FE, so he could push with a huge range of hands here. You have at least some decent edge over him. And if you flat call here, if blinds pushes, you have to call. So I would just push myself here to discourage blinds play back with small pps. If either one of them has top 10% of hands, at least you have a good chance to finish 3rd. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[WarDekar]

I didn't pay attention that the other 2 bigger stacks had yet to act, but this is also true in this case. I wouldn't just flat call here, push your stack too. If either of the other stacks calls they're likely to have a very, very good hand almost definitely a pair in which case you are very likely to finish 3rd because even if you don't win the hand the chance of the original raiser winning it is much smaller now. On the flip side, you could also go out in 4th on this very hand if the original pusher wins and someone calls after you and takes the side pot, but that's a risk I would take.

[adanthar]

ATs is by no means a huge favorite over what he's pushing, although it's actually a much bigger favorite if he is better than if he is a typical player for your buyin. (Naturally, the answer greatly depends on your buyin.)

I've made calls with worse hands and folded bigger hands, though. A lot depends on how tight the big stacks are and how likely you are to be able to steal even with only 1K.

But my default play here is to fold, although I call very often in similar situations.

[stillnotking]

[ QUOTE ]
4 handed I have 1800 chips, player to my right has 800 chips, the other two stacks are about even. This is the last hand of 100/200 and 800 chip guy is UTG. He moves all-in and I fold ATs. After I did it I was thinking of the range of hands he is probably pushing here and felt like a retard.

I am, a retard right. Arguing for a fold there is only for the sake of being argumentative isn't it. Totaly weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the fold. If he succeeds in stealing the blinds, or gets called and wins, push the next hand with any 2.

[(my name it is) Sam Hall]

Maybe your short-bus stop is right after mine, but I fold here with no regrets because of the two players left behind me with large stacks and better pot odds to call. The threat of a re-raise, which you then pretty much have to call despite probably being behind, seals it. The only other option is to push if at least one (preferably both) of the big stacks is abnormally tight.

Sam

[Gramps]

Oops, for some reason I thought he was saying he was in the BB.

Not as clear a call, but I'd still call it (go all-in actually, I don't want a big stack to call then push me out with a crappy hand/bottom pair like big stacks sometimes do (whether it's smart for them to or not)). Even if one of the big stacks gets involved, UTG will have to win, and you'll have to finish last to get knocked out in 4th. Given that your hand is better than UTG's on average, and that a big stack will probably only jump in with a strong hand, you'll get 4th a very small % of the time (like 10-15%) in this scenario. If you lose the times it's just you and UTG, you still have some fold equity on the next hand and if you steal the blinds there, you're back in business(not the best spot to be in, but you ain't dead yet).

I agree with whoever said 55%-60% favorite. I think a typical player will push some garbage hands here UTG.