Cold Calling Preflop w/ A8 soooted

[tripdad]

as a general rule, i do not cold call preflop, especially with suited Aces. my PT numbers have me cold calling once every 220 hands (is that too much?). well, tonight, this hand comes up:

Limper #1 has VPIP% of 61%, Limper 2 is at 63%, PFR is 50% w/PFR% of just 6.25. coldcaller has VPIP of 69%, SB's is 29%, and BB's is 65%. (nice table /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

i made the call because i was so sure at least one blind would follow suit, and the limpers sure weren't going anywhere. DO YOU MAKE THE CALL? is this a special circumstance which makes it OK, or do you generally ALWAYS call here?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG <font color="#A500AF">(limper #1)</font> calls, UTG+1 <font color="#A500AF">(limper #2)</font> calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 <font color="#A500AF">(PFR)</font> raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 <font color="#A500AF">(Cold Caller #1)</font> calls, CO folds, Hero calls, SB <font color="#A500AF">(SB)</font> calls, BB <font color="#A500AF">(BB)</font> calls, UTG <font color="#A500AF">(limper #1)</font> calls, UTG+1 <font color="#A500AF">(limper #2)</font> calls.

Flop: (14 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, limper #1 checks, limper #2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">PFR bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Cold Caller #1 raises</font>, Hero calls, SB folds, BB folds, limper #1 calls, limper #2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">PFR 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Cold Caller #1 caps</font>, Hero calls, limper #1 calls, limper #2 folds, PFR calls.

Turn: (16 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
limper #1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">PFR bets</font>, Cold Caller #1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, limper #1 calls, PFR calls, Cold Caller #1 calls.

River: (24 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
limper #1 checks, PFR checks, Cold Caller #1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, limper #1 folds, PFR calls, Cold Caller #1 folds.

Final Pot: 26 BB

cheers!

[tripdad]

n/m

[thirddan]

I would muck this... even though the preflop raiser is quite loose his raise percentage is less than most players here, so you are most likely dominated. While this isn't as much of a problem since the pot will be multiway, i still muck here...

[tripdad]

i agree with you about there being a good chance of being dominated, but i can certainly dump this without 2-pair or better if there is a lot of interest should an Ace flop.

i'm not saying it's right to make the call(that is why i posted...to ask), just saying that i'm playing for a flush or some type of unlikely miracle flop.

cheers!

[River2Pair]

Its always fine to call, but better to raise, if you plan on flopping the nuts.

[dr. klopek]

Never CC drawing to "miracle" anything.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Never CC drawing to "miracle" anything.

[/ QUOTE ]


the cold-call is standard...

[xxxxx]

I once cold called with ace ten soooted on the button. One of the limpers 3-bet which is exactly what I didn't want to see. The raiser had AJo and the 3-better had pocket queens so neither pair would win for me. I flopped a pair of tens on the flop and a flush draw on the turn so i wound up going all the way.

[dr. klopek]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Never CC drawing to "miracle" anything.

[/ QUOTE ]


the cold-call is standard...

[/ QUOTE ]

I read this and ran upstairs to talk to balkii, I stand corrected. I have been losing money.

[tripdad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Never CC drawing to "miracle" anything.

[/ QUOTE ]


the cold-call is standard...

[/ QUOTE ]

please say why this is standard, as i do not want to start doing it only to find out later it is a big leak.

i honestly had my mouse over the fold button, then thought about it a bit before deciding to make the call. also, what if i am holding 78s or some other suited connectors? would it be correct to call in that situation?

cheers!

[Entity]

I think the coldcall is standard with one more limper. As is, it's marginal but probably fine. If it is VERY likely that it will not be reraised and SB and BB will come along, then the coldcall is definitely standard.

Rob

[Bob T.]

Having read the other responses, I would have agreed with thirddan, I don't like the coldcall with the fairly tight preflop raiser making the raise, even though there is likely a lot of dead money in the pot.

But at the same time, when stheif says this is standard, it makes me really question my unwillingness to get involved in this situation, especially since it is apparently ok to coldcall with medium suited connectors in position, which I just learned recently.

[tripdad]

[ QUOTE ]
especially since it is apparently ok to coldcall with medium suited connectors in position, which I just learned recently.

[/ QUOTE ]

please show me where you learned this, or at least explain the logic behind it. this is very interesting to me. i can see why in a way, with the suited connectors having very little chance of being dominated and all...well, just post a link or something if you could.

cheers!

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Never CC drawing to "miracle" anything.

[/ QUOTE ]


the cold-call is standard...

[/ QUOTE ]

please say why this is standard, as i do not want to start doing it only to find out later it is a big leak.


[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG (limper #1) calls, UTG+1 (limper #2) calls, UTG+2 (PFR) raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 (Cold Caller #1) calls, CO folds, Hero calls, SB (SB) calls, BB (BB) calls, UTG (limper #1) calls, UTG+1 (limper #2) calls.

First - I'm never a fan of cold calling anything, and to say it is "standard" is a bit of a misnomer, as I firmly believe that cold calling is never "standard" but there are factors that lead to it at times.

So...reasons to call.

Position. - Being in late position Hero will be able to see the action on the flop and use that information to make good post flop choices.

Pot Odds/Bet Odds - Hero is currently only getting 7.5:2 on the cold call - however that assuming that the limpers will fold, and the blinds will both fold. Speculating that the limpers will call and may just one blind we can extrapolate Hero's Bet odds to 5:1 (and could be better if both blinds called)

Implied odds - with position and a draw to the potential nut flush - we figure to be able to collect an extra round of bets somewhere in the hand - either by pumping the draw with position, or putting in a late raise on a later round.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Rico Suave]

Sarge:

[ QUOTE ]
So...reasons to call.

Position. - Being in late position Hero will be able to see the action on the flop and use that information to make good post flop choices.

Pot Odds/Bet Odds - Hero is currently only getting 7.5:2 on the cold call - however that assuming that the limpers will fold, and the blinds will both fold. Speculating that the limpers will call and may just one blind we can extrapolate Hero's Bet odds to 5:1 (and could be better if both blinds called)

Implied odds - with position and a draw to the potential nut flush - we figure to be able to collect an extra round of bets somewhere in the hand - either by pumping the draw with position, or putting in a late raise on a later round.



[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

Reasons to fold:

Domination
Part of the strength of Axs is the ace. When against a preflop raise (from a tightish raiser, there is a good chance we are up against a dominating ace; and with the pot so large, it will be hard, if not wrong, to get away from our hand if we are dominated.

heavy up front price

Paying 2sb's up front (even at 12:2) for the opportunity to take a look at a flop you are most likely going to fold means you are going to have make a bundle when you do flop big to make up for the all the times you whiff.

--Rico

[Entity]

I think (though I can't remember for sure) that Ed advocates calling with this hand when you have 4+ limpers, right? So with 2 limpers, 1 coldcaller, and blinds that are likely to come along, isn't it fine?

I'd say it's standard with 2 limpers and 2 coldcallers and loose blinds, so it can't be that bad here.

Rob

[Rico Suave]

Rob:

[ QUOTE ]
I think (though I can't remember for sure) that Ed advocates calling with this hand when you have 4+ limpers, right? So with 2 limpers, 1 coldcaller, and blinds that are likely to come along, isn't it fine?


[/ QUOTE ]

I am not exactly sure what you are comparing, but limping (or in fact raising) in position behind 3 or 4 limpers is different than coldcalling a raise in a spot like this.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say it's standard with 2 limpers and 2 coldcallers and loose blinds, so it can't be that bad here.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, I do not think cold calling is necessarily bad, I just do not see it as standard; and I was pointing out the negatives. Of course, I suck compared to most SSers, so perhaps this is standard.....

--Rico

[Sarge85]

Domination .

heavy up front price


--Rico

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100%.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Entity]

Rico,

No, you misunderstood me. I mean that I think Ed advocates coldcalling with hands like this when you have 4 coldcallers ahead of you. With 2 limpers, 1 coldcaller, and two loose blinds, that's pretty damned close to the necessary requirements, no?

It's in the loose games preflop chart, "if 4 people have entered the pot ahead of you." I'd say this is pretty close to that example.

Like I said; it's not standard, but I think it's ok.

Rob

[Sarge85]

I realized I'm sort of riding the fence aren't I.

But I agree with 100% of what you said....I also agree with the points I make also.

The person who was asking the question needs to be able to:

1)Recognize the situation he is facing -

2)Have in mind what he will do Post Flop - this is key

3)Reconcile 1 &amp; 2 and determine if a cold call is appropirate.

That's pretty much why I don't think the cold call is "standard" - Based on the situation - it may be "favorable" however.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[me454555]

w/2 limpers, a raiser, and a cold caller, this seems pretty standard considering your in position. If BB call, not a far stretch, this is a 6 way pot and I like your chances. Well played

[Rico Suave]

Rob:


A reading from the Letter of ED to his Disciples:

"If at least four people have entered the pot in front of you:

Against a Raise
Play: Any pocket pair, any 2 suited cards ten and higher, any suited ace, and T9s - 76s. Also AK and AQ."

The gospel of ED.......(thanks be to NPA)

So, I assume Ed would call in this spot.

I dunno. I can say this type of situation does not come up all that often for me, and I generally choose to fold. I can say I am more comfortable calling with JTs or 33 in this spot rather than Axs. Perhaps my discomfort is not warranted.

--Rico

[cpk]

A case can be made for three-betting. Why?

1. Positive equity, even if dominated. Despite the risk of domination, your hand is still an overlay in general and could really cripple hands like A2 and 98--not to mention other flush draws.

2. Buy information. If the PFR caps the betting you know you will have to be more careful if you flop an Ace. You will also know where you stand if the flop comes Ace-high and he bets.

3. You may get a free card if you want one. Say the flop comes down something like:

6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif7/images/graemlins/club.gifT/images/graemlins/heart.gif

You have a number of crappy draws here, but if PFR sets you up with a check-raise (with KK, say), you will gladly take a free card instead. If you catch a diamond, a nine, or an ace, you will have given yourself a decent prospect of winning. Therefore, you will have improved your equity even further at the temporary cost of one small bet.

[Joe Tall]

You've picked the perfect spot and pot/players involved to cold-call here.

Keep flopping the nuts,
Joe Tall

[Munga30]

[ QUOTE ]
Final Pot: 26 BB

[/ QUOTE ]


Cold-call goot!

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]
A case can be made for three-betting. Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so....
[ QUOTE ]


1. Positive equity, even if dominated. Despite the risk of domination, your hand is still an overlay in general and could really cripple hands like A2 and 98--not to mention other flush draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

For some reason my Poker Stove is FUBAR, but in a raised pot, don't think there is wiggle room to be three betting here. -= could be wrong though

[ QUOTE ]

2. Buy information. If the PFR caps the betting you know you will have to be more careful if you flop an Ace. You will also know where you stand if the flop comes Ace-high and he bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

What info are you willing to pay for? If he caps you are up against a big pair - but which one? If he just calls your up against big aces? or maybe TT or JJ even. Is he just smooth calling to get the middle limpers to come along. I don't think your buying anything here.
[ QUOTE ]

3. You may get a free card if you want one. Say the flop comes down something like:

6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif7/images/graemlins/club.gifT/images/graemlins/heart.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

There are most likely going to be 6 people in this pot on the flop..... Don't you think someone may stab at it?

I guess I just want to point out that in this case cold calling may have been favorable, but I can't see that three betting is even more favorable.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif