a steal-raise with 55 [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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bisonbison

12-31-2004, 02:27 PM

Hrrrm. To be frank, this table kind of sucked by the time this hand came up but I was running real well on it and didn't feel like leaving. We'd finally gotten the table coach to shut up, but the bad player he was berating went bust and now it was just a bunch of tighter types to my right.

in short:
CO is about 20% tight preflop and so far (20 hands) has not seen a showdown. (20 hands)
BTN is 15% tight and seems decent. (200 hands)
SB is 40% loose and loose postflop but is also running hot, so I don't know if he's a huge calling station or just hitting a lot of hands. (40 hands)
BB is 20% tight preflop and tight postflop so far but of course that's over: (60 hands)

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif.
4 folds, Hero raises...

I normally fold here, but boredom and a sense of running-well invulnerability made me hit raise. Thoughts on the spewiness of said raise?

Tosh

12-31-2004, 02:39 PM

I'd raise too, though 55 would be very much a cutoff'ish point.

evain

12-31-2004, 02:43 PM

With the reads you have I don't mind the raise.

Having said that, I would fold. I guess my thoughts are like this ... say everyone folds but the SB. The flop comes 27T. He bets .... what is your move bison?

Cause that's what's probably going to happen.

Evain

Entity

12-31-2004, 02:43 PM

Bah. I'd raise 66, so how bad can 55 be? With CO, BTN, and BB's descriptions, I think this is fine.

Rob

bisonbison

12-31-2004, 02:44 PM

Him betting out on that flop is not probably going to happen. He's likely to miss any flop.

evain

12-31-2004, 02:48 PM

Okay let me put it differently. I am talking about a random flop - your average flop. If he bets out are you going to raise?

Let me put it differently. Are you raising thinking you are a better than 50% of everyone folding? I just don't want to get into a slanging match with one guy running hot while the blinds eat away at my half share of this pot.

But I am only a youngster and would love to hear your thoughts.

Evain.

bisonbison

12-31-2004, 02:49 PM

depending on the texture of the flop, I may raise or I may call down or I may fold. The 3/6 games are very bluffy, though I don't know if this guy was very bluffy.

edtost

12-31-2004, 02:51 PM

if he can get the decently tight players to fold behind him, which should happen a lot, headsup in position with a pair is the nuts. if he happens to get a bunch of coldcallers, he still has set equity. about the only way he is [censored][/i]ed is if he gets 3bet by the co or button and everyone else folds, which will happen like never.

evain

12-31-2004, 02:53 PM

Well I guess that's why I fold here. Unless it's a very quiet table I am going to avoid a heads up with a loose player. I would rather be going in with someone I knew well.

And thanks for all your great posts in the past. I follow them closely but have never spoken to you before.

New Years night here in London. I'm heading out.

Cheers

Evain.

bisonbison

12-31-2004, 02:53 PM

anyhoo:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif.
4 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Turn: (5.16 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, BB caps, Hero calls.

River: (13.16 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB bets...

I am of the opinion that I should raise and call a 3-bet. Thoughts?

edtost

12-31-2004, 02:55 PM

live, i aggree. online, since a 4bet doesn't reopen the action, i like capping.

evain

12-31-2004, 02:55 PM

Now that you're here I raise and cap if necessary.

Entity

12-31-2004, 02:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am of the opinion that I should raise and call a 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds about right.

Rob

Entity

12-31-2004, 02:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Unless it's a very quiet table I am going to avoid a heads up with a loose player.

[/ QUOTE ]

With position, this is exactly what you want.

Rob

evain

12-31-2004, 02:59 PM

OK Rob I am coming around to the fact that I have made a tool of myself here. Just come off a tough couple of hours and I guess I am feeling like avoiding the confrontations which have haunted me today. It's why I stopped playing just now!

You are, of course, correct.

Evain.

bisonbison

12-31-2004, 03:00 PM

You don't sound like a tool, you just sound a little weak-tight.

Don't fear bad players. Don't fear good players. The worst thing that can happen isn't gonna happen very often.

Tosh

12-31-2004, 03:01 PM

When he 3 bets I think you are beat too often to cap, we're probably looking at AA/99.

bisonbison

12-31-2004, 03:09 PM

ok, I lied again. I rivered quads and got berated for the next 5 minutes by the guy with KK.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif.
4 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Turn: (5.16 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, BB caps, Hero calls.

River: (13.16 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

Final Pot: 21.16 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has Kc Kh (full house, kings full of fives).
Hero has 5d 5c (four of a kind, fives).
Outcome: Hero wins 21.16 BB.

Tosh

12-31-2004, 03:11 PM

Tell him his father was a hamster and his mother smelt of elderberry.

bisonbison

12-31-2004, 03:13 PM

Actually, I've started to take the ElDiablo line of spouting nonsense:

If I river somebody and they complain, I say: "I flopped it!" "I had it the whole way." "You were losing on the flop." I'll say anything as long as it's not true.

Here, I just shut up though cause someone else started defending me for no reason.

River2Pair

12-31-2004, 03:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I've started to take the ElDiablo line of spouting nonsense:

If I river somebody and they complain, I say: "I flopped it!" "I had it the whole way." "You were losing on the flop." I'll say anything as long as it's not true.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is brilliant.

IndieMatty

12-31-2004, 03:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If I river somebody and they complain, I say: "I flopped it!" "I had it the whole way." "You were losing on the flop."

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually all of those lines would be true. The guy hit his 2 outer, knowing he was beat on the flop.

FWIW I type "Gamble!".

Entity

12-31-2004, 03:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW I type "Gamble!".

[/ QUOTE ]

You're too white.

It's GAMBOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!

bisonbison

12-31-2004, 03:21 PM

which is why I didn't say anything. In order for this to work it has to be wrong.

IndieMatty

12-31-2004, 03:25 PM

I don't do the 2+2 slang often unless im drunk. And then that means I'm on some lucky 2-4 table spraying. Even before I knew about these forums, I remember seeing a guy say stuff like g00t, and what not, and it set off an alarm in my head.

Also there is no such thing as "too" white.

I kid. I kid.

chesspain

12-31-2004, 03:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Here, I just shut up though cause someone else started defending me for no reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's good to know that even non-2+2ers know to protect the fish. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Entity

12-31-2004, 03:29 PM

I probably would have said "they were suited!"

StellarWind

12-31-2004, 05:13 PM

Another stupid maximizing quads post ... /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

My default is to have sixes for that open-raise. Given your favorable table description fives are obviously plenty.

I was pretty shocked when I read that everyone wanted to raise and maybe even cap the 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I felt better when I read the results.

Call the rivered 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. You got 3-bet preflop by a tight player. He knows you raised preflop. He can see the AK on the board as well as you can. He totally doesn't care. That's a problem.

Sounds like AA, KK, 99, or AK. Nothing else remotely fits. Nine hands in your favor and nine hands against you. All of these hands might have 3-bet the flop instead of smoothcalling except KK. That makes the three KK hands more likely than the rest. AK might have worried and not capped the turn. That makes the 9 AK hands less likely. You are a definite underdog here. You certainly don't have the 2-1 odds you need to raise the river and risk a 3-bet (99 looks like the nuts to me when you don't cap preflop).

BottlesOf

12-31-2004, 05:14 PM

I agree, I was starting to think I was weak tight for not wanting that extra raise.

Zetack

12-31-2004, 06:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
which is why I didn't say anything. In order for this to work it has to be wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmm I like: "Dude [note the dude is absolutely key], you really suck at poker doncha?"

--Zetack

Emperor

01-05-2005, 08:27 PM

"They were suited" - Classic

"Presto!"

"I love my Pattern Mapper"

"KK no g00t, too high!"

"I put you on pacat00s"

"Did I win the bad beat?!"

"NH, I knew I was beat" (failing to recognize you won the hand is the best)

"Cowboys like the ride?" (Speaking like you don't know english is even funnier)

"Rumsfeld/Limbaugh '08" - megalomaniacal tilt will ensue