Party $109 Hand - ITM, Short but Average Stack

[Lloyd]

This is a common situation that I'm sure we all face quite frequently. Party $100+9 NLHE tourney. Top 60 pays and we're now down to 57. I have less than 10XBB but so do most people so I'm actually around 25th in chips. Moving up to the 20s would earn me another $100. And we all know it's getting to the final table that matters. So, with a goal of reaching the final table, would you fold, call, push or do a stop and go?

Sorry, the converter is down:

#Game No : 1365843815
***** Hand History for Game 1365843815 *****
NL Hold'em Trny:8253609 Level:13 Blinds (750/1500) - Thursday, December 30, 00:35:40 EDT 2004
Table Multi-Table(189942) Table #4 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: bdhall ( $13276 )
Seat 2: CaptSteve ( $8070 )
Seat 3: PomiDor1 ( $10086 )
Seat 5: Skeels ( $7989 )
Seat 6: rplrpl ( $19920 )
Seat 7: unioncollege ( $5265 )
Seat 8: CARPETBAGGER ( $12630 )
Seat 9: jr424 ( $10984 )
Seat 10: Magic_Pig ( $8780 )
Trny:8253609 Level:13
Blinds (750/1500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Magic_Pig [ 6s 6h ]
CaptSteve folds.
PomiDor1 folds.
Skeels folds.
rplrpl folds.
unioncollege folds.
CARPETBAGGER folds.
jr424 raises [3000].
Magic_Pig ??????

[Pepsquad]

Push.

[Rizen]

I push against an obvious steal, but it's close since he's goign to be getting good odds to call and could easily have 2 overs. If you had 2-3k more it's an easy push as I think you get more fold equity that way. Either way I'd probably push here though barring any reads on the player.

-Rizen

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
I push against an obvious steal, but it's close since he's goign to be getting good odds to call and could easily have 2 overs. If you had 2-3k more it's an easy push as I think you get more fold equity that way. Either way I'd probably push here though barring any reads on the player.

-Rizen

[/ QUOTE ]

No reads on the player. If you're concerned about folding equity what about a stop and go?

[Rizen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I push against an obvious steal, but it's close since he's goign to be getting good odds to call and could easily have 2 overs. If you had 2-3k more it's an easy push as I think you get more fold equity that way. Either way I'd probably push here though barring any reads on the player.

-Rizen

[/ QUOTE ]

No reads on the player. If you're concerned about folding equity what about a stop and go?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I were the button I'm not sure I could fold this to a stop and go either unless the flop was like AKJ. Thinking about it though I do think a stop and go would be a better play than pushing, as you'd get a little bit of fold equity that way.

So I'm changing my response /images/graemlins/smile.gif I think this is a hole in my tournament game anyways. Later on I like to do a lot of pushing/re-stealing when I should be mixing in some stop and gos too, especially if I feel they give me greater folding equity. Good hand, definitely food for thought...

-Rizen

[Lloyd]

And because I love to play devil's advocate, even when I'm the one suggesting the original move, would you do a stop and go on a mini-raise with one person left to act. Seems like it offers pretty good odds to the BB and you certainly wouldn't want to play this three-way.

[Rizen]

Good point, for some reason I thought you were the BB and the SB was the one that raised you. Not sure why, maybe it's late and I'm more worried about the stars rebuy right now /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Like I said originally, I would probably push, but that may be a hole in my game. I almost think you'd need a read on the BB here. I'm curious as to what other 2+2ers think though, as this is a situation I come across a lot as well. I almost always push without a solid read, but that may be a leak...

-Rizen

[Rizen]

And yes, I'm flip-flopping more than a certain Senator we've all heard so much about /images/graemlins/wink.gif

-Rizen

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious as to what other 2+2ers think though, as this is a situation I come across a lot as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope others give input as well. I try to post hands that have are more overall strategic versus just "did I screw up this hand". I think this situation comes up quite frequently - your short stack but not absolutely desperate, you have a marginal hand but certainly one that is +EV, and you can wait and earn a little extra cash.

I played my first Stars $10+1 rebuy tonight. Very interesting. I got knocked out around 190 and was card dead for the last hour or so. But it's a cheap way of getting aggression out!

[Pete]

do you ever miss being in the money lloyd?? seems like you are on a pretty good streak in the multi's right now.

keep it up

[Lloyd]

You know how it is - lots of streaks. Last couple of weeks have been good. I'm ITM in Large Caps right now but pretty short stacked. Same situation as last night /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[LethalRose]

I would almost definately push in this position. For a few reasons..

1) his raise is probably just a position raise, pushing will make him fold his a/x hand.

2) He's risking 3000 to win 1500, this looks more like hes trying to get your BB without a fight, if he had a real hand he would probably raise a little more. This is more player specific and depends on how the table is playing. If hes a tricky player he may be mixing it up and wanting you to push with his high PP, its a risk id take at this point.

3) if you call and win you'll be in good position to move up in the money significantly. If you fold you may not get a better opportunity. Stealing blinds will help but you cant steal blinds enough to make up for your stack size.

you're already in the money, for me its time to try to win a few coinflips and think about how you can get to the final table.

if you can win 50% more money by making this call I would do it. all depends on the tourney and how its structured..


3) If you win the pot, it will be easier to try to steal a few blinds yourself. Or use position and bluff out a tight player.

[zaxx19]

Id push and HOPE HE HAS 2 OVERS..you are gonna end up a favorite to doublethrough and more here..then you are gonna have at least a workable stack.

[kfan]

[ QUOTE ]
Id push and HOPE HE HAS 2 OVERS..you are gonna end up a favorite to doublethrough and more here..then you are gonna have at least a workable stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

your EMPHASIS on RANDOM WORDS is really REALLY anNNOYING.

I vote for a push to prevent the BB from getting involved.

[woodguy]

I think you have to look for a better situation.

To pull off the Stop n Go you need to flat call and this will give the BB 5-1 to call so he's coming along, and now you need to flop a set to really feel good about the situation.

If you push, Button is getting 2-1 on his call so I don't think you have that much fold equity. (plus a min-raise looks like it wants action, even from the button)
I think the best you can hope for is a race against overcards, and of course a few times you will be dominated.

On the whole, you have enough chips to wait for a better situation as I think at best you're in a a race for all your chips. The button is coming next hand, better situations will arise.

You are too good a player to make it all the way into the $$$ and then gamble your whole stack on what you hope is a race.

edit: If you are the BB and the SB folded with all else being equal, I'd stop n' go in a heartbeat

Regards,
Woodguy

[zaxx19]

If a few words being capitalized is enough of an annoyance to actually warrant you making a post...you might wanna look into one of the myriad of adult ADD medications on the market. Or your just your run of the mill under IQ'ed Anal Retentive post nazi...either way not really my problem.

[Lloyd]

So we have a few people saying they'd push in this situation and one saying to wait for a better opportunity. Any other thoughts?

If you think you should pass on this, what would be your minimum pair/non-pair hand to push with?

[zaxx19]

Im hardly LAG as a player as my posts have evidenced..but If you can put all your money in here with 6X BB and a medium PP then your just arent gonna dig your way out of the short stack here without an astonishingly good run of cards. No time just push em.

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
If you think you should pass on this, what would be your minimum pair/non-pair hand to push with?


[/ QUOTE ]

Min pair would be 99 or TT depending on my read or mood.
I like to see a 3 outer when an opponent turns over A7- A9 not a race.

Non pair is probably AQo or better, AJ if I have seen him lay down before and the BB has not been aggressive.

I'd rather push w/ 72o if it gets folded to me in the next 2-3 hands than willingly get into a race on purpose here.

Regards,
Woodguy

[Lloyd]

And just to put the math out there:

When he raised to 3K, the pot is T5250. If I push the pot will be T13280 giving him 2.3 to 1 odds to call.

[Potowame]

I would agree with this statment Zaxx if you where first to open. With a open raise and players to act 66 is crap. Your push is getting call by Three possible hands

1. Two overs

2. Better Pair

3. Worse Pair (less likley)


If I was desperately short , compared to all other stackes I would take this gamble. I think this is one of those times that you need to be very aware of everyone elses stack size. Playing Conservative with raised pots and aggressive when you open is a better stratagy here I belive than pushing in on a gamble against shown aggression.

P.S. I would have pushed this against a player from last night who opened mini raised From MP1-3 and showed down 63os 73os and 52os lol. He had the deck hit him in the face on all three with two pair and a FH.

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
And just to put the math out there:

When he raised to 3K, the pot is T5250. If I push the pot will be T13280 giving him 2.3 to 1 odds to call.


[/ QUOTE ]

Gee Lloyd when I put this in my response

[ QUOTE ]
If you push, Button is getting 2-1 on his call


[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it was close enough.

You math guys are so damn particular /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Do you think I narrowing my calling range too much?

Regards,
Woodguy

[Lloyd]

Okay, doesn't look like we're going to get any more responses so here's what I did, what happened (not that the results are really important), and what my conclusions are after reading all of this.

For all of the valid reasons suggested by the "push" people, I pushed. I thought that given the range of hands he could have I certainly had an edge, albeit not a huge one. I really didn't give much thought to anything else. I didn't want to do a stop-and-go because I knew that would bring along the BB.

He turned over AA and I was over and done with. But again, I don't really think it matters what he actually had because we're talking about how to handle this type of hand with the incomplete information we have at the time. But just in case you were wondering, that's what happened.

After reading these posts and giving it more thought, I would muck this in a heartbeat if the situation presented itself again. There is almost no fold equity unless he was on an absolute bluff. So I will very likely get called and will probably be in a coin flip situation. I like being in coin flip situations when I'm the one tossing the coin, but not the other way around. I've just paid my blinds and if I fold I'll have 5XBB for another orbit - enough that I can raise and get people off of marginal hands. In the meantime, I can let other people bust out and maybe move up a little in the money. So even though I'm shortstacked I can wait for an opportunity to be the aggressor and ear a little extra cash in the process - not a bad combo.

Thanks for the input. I think this helped plug a little leak in my game.