Laydown KK here preflop?

[KHALI]

$10 table on paradise. Second level(10/20)
7players left Hero is second stack with 1800.

Hero is button with KK
Middle player raises to 80
Late calls
Hero raises to 300 (what do you think of the size here?)
blinds fold
Middle raises all in 2700 total
late folds

Do you fold to the only stack that can break you here and lick your wounds to fight another day. Obviously I called even though I felt I was against aces. Is it really a no brainer here based strictly on tournament situation?
And if this is so could I not make the same play with any two cards and fold to the all in? Are my kings irrelevant here?

[poboy]

If you're absolutely sure he has Aces than yes it is an obvious fold. But how can you be sure of that, this could easily be QQ on down maybe even AK. You will only be in serious trouble a very small percentage of the time, the rest of the time you will be way ahead. Call and if he flips up Aces , pray for a King. The size of your re-raise seems a little large, I would be afraid he would fold.

As far as making this play with any two cards goes. What do you do when he just calls? What happens is you find yourself in a very tricky situation, I like to avoid tricky situations especially early on against a big stack. JMO

[alexbrew]

A ton of threads already exist to that say don't lay down KK.

I can't even figure out what part of the hand scares you unless you've played with the all in guy 1000 times and never once seen him raise up a pot.

[ilya]

Do not fold here unless you have an EXTREMELY strong read that he would only do this with AA-KK.

[Michael C.]

With 7 players left and 1800 chips, you're not assured of anything. So you push, hope he doesn't have aces, and then move on. I think it's a no brainer.

[Bigwig]

You call. No question.

[lorinda]

Hero raises to 300 (what do you think of the size here?)

I like it.

I don't like the laydown, see other comments. I'm not in the NEVER lay it down school, but I need compelling evidence to the contrary, particuarly in a $10.

Think of it as a normal hand. If you're about 50% sure then it's the same as AK vs 88 and if you're more sure than that it's the same as having him dominated.
AK loses to A4 sometimes, but you wouldn't fold it /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Lori

[soko]

Anyone who folds kings, I laugh in your face. It's pathetic really.

[raptor517]

i have never once folded KK preflop online in a sng. period. and i would venture to guess that i never will either.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who folds kings, I laugh in your face. It's pathetic really.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure Lorinda had excellent reasons on whatever occasions she folded KK preflop. She is not exactly a novice.

I also happen to agree with her. I think there are times to fold KK preflop even in a $10.

I think if you NEVER fold KK preflop, you are not reading your opponents enough.

[soko]

Folding KK is just outplaying yourself, I’m not posting here anymore but folding KK is ludicrous unless of course you see the person’s cards before folding.

[Phoenix1010]

You will occasionally read about a top pro folding kings against one opponent preflop. There are a few factors that are usually present:
1. It's one of the best players in the world making the play, with incredible card reading ability, honed over decades of intense practice.
2. The player who induced the fold is someone who the folder has played with many times, often with hundreds of hours of time played together. The player making the move usually has a very strong tendency to play aces a certain way, almost to the point of playing by a rule ("X will ONLY make this play with aces"), and this tendency has been observed by the folder on numerous occasions.
3. It's a live game, giving the folder all of the tells and reads that he could possibly get.
4. The hand takes place in the early stages of a high stakes, large field tournament, where the competition is high, busting out means a huge loss to the player, and the player generally wants to avoid being all-in preflop at all.


When all four of these factors are present, it is occasionally (VERY occasionally. I believe Phil Hellmuth said he's done it only two or three times in his entire career) ok to fold KK against one opponent preflop. Any other time, you simply do not have enough information to think that you're not way ahead.

There are only 6 combinations of cards that beat you. The evidence has to be extremely strong that he's holding AA as opposed to all of the other possible strong hands for you to fold the second best hand in poker. In a 10+1 tournament, with someone you barely have any experience with, it's simply a bad play to fold KK to one opponent.

By the way, anyone who says that it is "NEVER" ok to fold KK preflop at all is also wrong. If five people go all-in before you (which I've seen happen more than once at 10+1), fold. If there's a UTG limp, a raise, reraise, then UTG limp reraise all-in, consider folding. If you're shortstacked on the bubble, and everyone else goes all-in with equal stacks, consider folding AA, definitely fold KK. In multiway pots, it's possible to get sufficient evidence that someone has AA to consider folding KK, and sometimes circumstances make it not worth the added risk of getting outdrawn.

Thinking about it though, I don't think I've ever folded KK, and the situations where it's debatable come up so infrequently, it's possible I never will.

Regards,
Steve

[lorinda]

I have folded KK five times preflop in my life in non-satellite, non-bonus scenarios.

Four of those were live, three times they flashed AA and once QQ. On the occasion he flashed the QQ I was so surprised that I know my fold was the right move in the long run. I also went on to win the tourney anyway and QQ guy was the only person who could have crippled me.

Online I have folded it once in a regular SNG and I'm 95% certain I was wrong. I did however manage to get it in against the guy later with JJ vs Ax which I felt was better than getting it in with KK vs either AA or QQ.

In general folding KK preflop is awful, but if you are not thinking about the play of each hand then you are playing a system, not poker.

Lori

[Marcotte]

I had KK twice last night. Once in a SNG and once in a ring game. Both times I didn't fold. Both times we were all-in preflop. Both times he showed aces. Both times I caught a King. (Still didn't win the SNG though /images/graemlins/frown.gif)

[DVC Calif]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you fold to the only stack that can break you here and lick your wounds to fight another day. Obviously I called even though I felt I was against aces. Is it really a no brainer here based strictly on tournament situation?
And if this is so could I not make the same play with any two cards and fold to the all in? Are my kings irrelevant here?

[/ QUOTE ]

He said he called so all the mockery about folding KK is irrelevant.

Khali is asking advice on whether it was a good call (Yes, 95% of the time) and whether his re-raise/call can be made with any two cards (No, 95% of the time).

Steve

[Voltron87]

In my poker career I have never laid down KK preflop. Never ever. QQ, yes, KK, no. And I have played a lot of poker.

[poboy]

[ QUOTE ]
I think if you NEVER fold KK preflop, you are not reading your opponents enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone who thinks their reading abilities are so good that they can laydown KK pf in an online SNG are only kidding themselves. The situations where it might be correct to lay down KK come up so infrequently that it would have little to no effect on your bottom line if you NEVER folded KK. Very similar to the situation Ed Miller describes regarding folding a royal flush every time you made one, it is a mistake sure , but not one that will cost you much in the long run.

[KHALI]

As I stated in my post I called so I guess I'm not the total idiot some mistook me for. However I did so feeling there was a very high chance I was facing aces. I had shown down two big hands and had not mucked around with any trash as of yet. Villian had won two hands with big cards and had not limped in once, I believe he had only played two hands. SO I expected him to have solid cards and if he had been paying attention then he must have the same feeling about my hand. This as well as the fact that we were the two big stacks led me to believe he wouldn't get into it with me this early without quality for sure. Maybe it was just a fear instinct or something but I did type in "you got me" before I called. I am not good enough to get away from that hand. Thanks for the responses that confirmed that I am not the only one who would play it the same way. I respect and look forward to your feedback and advice as I am, as the login says, a newbie who really wants to learn from more experienced players.

[Voltron87]

Nobody is good enough to get away from AA when you have KK in an online sitngo. Don't worry too much about this, this is not a leak in your game.