Nut flush draw + pair + bkdoor straight...slow down?

[DrPublo]

First hand at the table, I post in the CO. I'm just switching back from Empire to Party and I haven't copied the notes file over yet, so no reads and no notes. Assume standard opponents.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Hero posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero (poster) calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Standard? I'm pretty sure the pot is going to be multiway and I have position (although not with respect to the raiser).

Flop: (11.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Good raise?

Turn: (9.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Take my free card with extra outs or bet for value? Felt like a bet but I could be persuaded. I say felt like a bet because I don't particularly mind a c/r here, right?

River: (15.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, Hero....

Good raise here? And what to do now?

Thanks for any and all comments.

The Doc

[edtost]

call, and get gametime+. so much better than autoexport notes.

[NoDice]

I think your play was fine on all streets. I call the river. MP2 took it to three bets here, so it's likely he has JT, but he could very well have a set in this situation and doesn't put you on holding a six due to your flop aggression. This is my first post in the forum, so forgive me while I familiarize myself.

[DrPublo]

Do you bet the turn or let it get checked through?

The Doc

[NoDice]

Bet the turn. There's a small chance you pick up the pot right there. Combined with the fact that you have 9 outs to the nut flush and an open-ended straight draw which is probably worth about 5-6 outs, I think you're in good position to win this pot. I like this play, betting wins more pots than checking and calling.

[Derek in NYC]

1. Fold preflop
2. Flop is fine
3. 4th street is fine.
4. Reraise the river, call a cap.

The 4th street conclusion requires some explanation. You have 8 outs to the nuts (any /images/graemlins/heart.gif except the 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif), 1 out to the likely nuts (9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif), 4 outs to the non-nut but probably good str8, and 3 outs to two pair (any 6) which may or may not be good. An ace either doesnt help you, or you dont need it because you're ahead, so I will count the ace as zero.

This is a total of 14-16 outs with 1 card to come, meaning you're about 2:1 against. Now ordinarily, if you can get 2 people or more to come along on the ride, you should raise for value.

However, because of position and the order of the betting, a raise here is more likely to thin the field and isolate you against the raiser. So just call and hope that MP1 calls behind. Now if MP1 had been the bettor, and MP2 had called, I would suggest raising unless you think MP1 would reraise.

[stabn]

How could he fold preflop if he was a CO poster? He's getting 10-1 on his preflop call, and if the three limpers call behind him he gets 13-1.

[DrPublo]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Fold preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

What?

3 limpers + blinds + the raiser in front of me. I've posted, so assuming the BB calls, and all limpers call, I'm getting 12:1 on my call. I don't particularly fear a reraise here, and even if one of the limpers ducks out I'm still way priced in. I'm also not playing this hand for one pair, obviously.

Playing flush draws out of position sucks, but acting last is nice, especially if I run a free card play on the flop. Do you really think this is a fold preflop? Please explain.

The Doc

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]

Playing flush draws out of position sucks, but acting last is nice, especially if I run a free card play on the flop. Do you really think this is a fold preflop? Please explain.


[/ QUOTE ]

He must have missed the fact that you posted in the CO.

[DrPublo]

[ QUOTE ]
An ace either doesnt help you, or you dont need it because you're ahead, so I will count the ace as zero.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ace helps if he has two pair like 9s up or 8s up, which is not too unlikely (playing 89, 78, etc). So you're right I do have plenty of outs, more than even you counted, so I'm pretty sure it's a good turn bet. Does anybody disagree?

River helps my hand if I was behind a set or two pair but commits me to more bets if he's got a better straight. Good raise?

The Doc

[Derek in NYC]

Sorry my fault, I thought you CCPF.

[NoDice]

I think the only reasonable hand that you're behind is JT. When you think about the range of possible hands that he could have raised the turn with (A9, A8, A7, 89, 78, 88, 99, 77), I think a raise is in order. However, the fact that he three bet makes it possible that you're up against JT. That's why I would suggest calling 3 bets on the river rather than capping until you have a better read on the player, but I think your initial raise was a no-brainer. I'd guess that you won the hand against two pair or a set.

[edtost]

i bet, but i think it might be a leak of mine.

[DrPublo]

He had Th Jc for the turned gutshot to the nuts. Oh well.

Also capping the river never really occured to me because when he instantly 3-bet me I was pretty sure I was behind. If I had more of a read on the player I might not have raised the river, but as the hand played out I think I played it as well as I could have.

Thanks for the responses.

The Doc

[wheelz]

With 3 people left to act, should just calling the flop be considered?

[DrPublo]

Isn't this one of those spots where I want to clean up some of my outs? I really wouldnt mind if 54 folded, for example, cleaning up my 6 if I catch 2 pair. Also there are some Ax hands with which I might be chopping if the board comes high-high that I dont mind if they fold either. A2, for example.

You can also think of my raise as a value raise. If I can get 4 or 5 people to call my raise when I have the nut flush draw + TP + backdoor straight, I make a ton of Sklansky bucks. As it is I'm still +EV on the turn action, even with the folds.

I think the flop is a pretty clean raise. Anyone disagree?

The Doc

[Freakin]

Flop raise is standard. It's unlikely given the apparent texture of the table that all 3 players will fold. If you get even one more caller (plus bettor) than it's for value, but you already knew that. Jam the crap outa that draw.

Freakin

[Evan]

I haven't read the thread yet so don't kill me for repeating advice. But I think you need to bet the turn. This is not a "check with outs" spot since you're likely to have to best hand at the moment.

On the river I'm capping because it looks a lot like MP slowplayd a set-ish hand. Check-coldcalling 2 is pretty common when somone flops a monster. If he has JT/T6 then I guess I lose the maximum, but since he can't 5 bet I think you should cap here. IMO you'll see 77/88 more often than a bigger straight.