Insta-buddy (no content)

[private joker]

I forgot which thread it was where people were listing the Worst River Calls of all time. But here's a hand where my opponent made what may be the worst river call *of a 4-bet* of all time. When I checked the HH to see what he had, my jaw was on the floor for ten minutes. I couldn't get to my buddy list fast enough...

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (3.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls.

River: (10.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 18.25 BB

Results below:
UTG has Jc Qh (one pair, tens).
Hero has Kh Kd (full house, kings full of tens).
Outcome: Hero wins 18.25 BB.

[gaming_mouse]

hey joker,

i see you playing online finally....

how do you like it?

looks like it's treating you well so far.

gm

[sthief09]

failing to bet the flop is terrible

I thought you only play live?

[MoDOH]

Come on... give the guy credit. He did have the short straight...

[uw_madtown]

Bet the flop.

[Swills]

My only guess is maybe UTG thought he had a straight. I've done that a few times. Yeah, we all had a good laugh at the table when I turn my cards over and declare a straight and everyone looks at me like I'm retarded. But those were late nights and the casino was out of coffee. Can you believe it, out of coffee?!

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
failing to bet the flop is terrible

I thought you only play live?

[/ QUOTE ]

You really think its terrible?

I think I might have bet to conceal my hand, but sometimes, especially w/ only 3 in, everyone folds out on the PF raiser when an A or K comes.

For that reason I think the slowplay is defensible -- it pretty much guarantees you get paid something, at least.

Or do you have different reasons?

gm

[Swills]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
failing to bet the flop is terrible

I thought you only play live?

[/ QUOTE ]

You really think its terrible?

I think I might have bet to conceal my hand, but sometimes, especially w/ only 3 in, everyone folds out on the PF raiser when an A or K comes.

For that reason I think the slowplay is defensible -- it pretty much guarantees you get paid something, at least.

Or do you have different reasons?

gm

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I'm sure at the sight of a King and a bet the others would have folded for sure. Since everyone checked and he bet the turn they figured he hit his card and they could beat that. So they stay in. Good play in my opinion.

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
failing to bet the flop is terrible

I thought you only play live?

[/ QUOTE ]

You really think its terrible?

I think I might have bet to conceal my hand, but sometimes, especially w/ only 3 in, everyone folds out on the PF raiser when an A or K comes.

For that reason I think the slowplay is defensible -- it pretty much guarantees you get paid something, at least.

Or do you have different reasons?

gm

[/ QUOTE ]

He's in late position, so a flop bet will probably look like a move to steal the pot, and since it's a raised pot, it's more likely the other players will toss in a bet here. Plus, if you get checkraised by middle or low set, you can call. and raise their turn bet and probably get good action. That's actually what I thought happened here, without looking at the comments. Might as well get a couple extra SBs on the flop (anyone folding for one SB from the last to act on the flop is folding to your bet on the turn for sure, unless they hit something hard).

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
He's in late position, so a flop bet will probably look like a move to steal the pot

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, i read fast and didn't notice that. a bet probably is in order. however, i still don't think waiting is terrible. less than optimal, maybe, but considering the extra bets it may gain you on the big streets, not terrible.

i think people throw around the word terrible too lightly sometimes to describe any play they disagree with. i think in many cases it is simply not an accurate description.

gm

[sthief09]

it's just about never correct to give a free card in a medium sized pot with the best hand. they like to call. let them call. you don't want to give them a free card so they can make a +EV call on the turn

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He's in late position, so a flop bet will probably look like a move to steal the pot

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, i read fast and didn't notice that. a bet probably is in order. however, i still don't think waiting is terrible. less than optimal, maybe, but considering the extra bets it may gain you on the big streets, not terrible.

i think people throw around the word terrible too lightly sometimes to describe any play they disagree with. i think in many cases it is simply not an accurate description.

gm

[/ QUOTE ]

You're correct, actually -- "terrible" is getting used entirely too much lately. As is "disaster".

In terms of cost, I'd say checking behind on this flop is wrong, but not terribly costly or a disaster. However, that said, I think personally it's a pretty obvious bet -- so in terms of obviousness, it's pretty terrible. I make plenty such plays all the time, FYI, so I'm not calling you or joker terrible players or that I'm better.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
so I'm not calling you or joker terrible players or that I'm better.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I didn't think you were at all. In fact, the dramatic effect or insulting part of "terrible" is not even what I mind. I just think that often it's not an accurate description and can actually be misleading.

That is, it is valuable to know the difference between close plays, plays that are kind of close but where one is clearly better, plays that are not even close at all, and plays that are not even close AND which are very costly when you make the wrong decision -- this last is the only kind that the word "terrible" should be used to describe, IMO.

gm

[wheelz]

He would've loved himself for checking the flop if the ace/nine hit the river.

[private joker]

I think it's nonsense to say checking this flop is terrible. In fact, I think betting it is fairly terrible. Game conditions were, Josh, that most of these guys wouldn't call the flop without a piece. My hand is a monster. I have to give them a chance to catch up to something. Yes, I could be giving a free card to a hand like 87 and they could catch a 4, but fine -- let them hit a miracle card. Would betting knock 87 out? No. I'd much rather keep people in so they catch up to a second best hand. Let them get two pair. Let them get a smaller set. Let them hit an ace and think they have top pair. Anything.

This is the perfect flop for slowplaying. I'm in late position. I'm last to act. I've raised PF. I hit top set on a rainbow flop. If it takes runner-runner for UTG to hit a straight, then fine -- I'll take those odds. But since the vast majority of the time I'll let them get 2nd best hand and they'll pay off more, I think checking here is way +++EV compared to betting it. I know people are allergic to slowplaying, and I rarely do it, but I never thought twice about betting this flop and I still don't. I'll check this through every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

BTW, Gaming Mouse and sthief -- I commented on moving from B&amp;M to online in a thread earlier this week; it was either in my Protecting Your Hand (Thanks Ed Miller) thread or in my Played a Set of 3s Tricky thread. Skim through those and you'll see some explanations.

[sthief09]

checking the flop there is so bush league. just bet. you've got 6 SB in the pot. stop caring about their extra bets and start worrying about the pot. it's a lot bigger. if, for soem reason, you misclicked and didn't raise preflop, then go ahead and slowplay in the 3 SB pot, but don't do it in a raised pot. save the trickiness for small pots where deception has more value

also realize that the board isn't THAT uncoordinated. there's a 5 and a 6. a 7, 8, 4, or 3 could give your opponents a +EV situation on the turn.