Where do I draw the line?

[BobboFitos]

Ok, I'm writing this because an overaggressive online player definately has me frustrated. The scenario:

Full game, you limp from EP or MP with a PP. OAP (Overaggressive player) raises, the blinds fold, and you call, taking the flop head up. The flop brings all low cards, like 3 3 5, or 2 4 5, etc. So all wheel cards.

You have an overpair, you check to him, and he overbets the pot. My real qualm is when do you think your OP is good?

I'm including JJ down to 66, (three wheel cards) and I'd really like to know the rationale behind this, only because I folded two mid pairs (8-8 and 9-9) and he showed twice, and both times I had him in rough shape.

This player isn't bad, just LAGish, so he raises more hands from LP, but you can't define his hand range any further than the info provided/fact he raises with most PPs.

And when/if you vote, please explain the logic between the difference in calling with Jacks vs Tens, or Sevens vs Tens, etc. Thanks!

[amoeba]

Interesting post.

Why not bet out with overpair?

if he has overpair as well, is it autoraise for him?

[Pokerho]

If he's overly aggressive, the only thing you should really be worried about is him raising with a hand like A3 or something that flopped him an OESD. If you've flopped 2 pair against an aggressive player, I would say you're probably ahead (especially if all of the cards are low like you said). Betting or check raising would be my play after the flop.

[BobboFitos]

I voted for tens and up, and honestly, I have no idea why!!!

I "guess" my thinking is if you have a lowly pair and are right he only has overcards, it's still very likely he has overs, which gives him ~25% of winning, so your guess as to whether he has a big pair or not has to be far more accurate, because with TT or up he could have one (or no!) overs, making any correct guess virtually gauruntee you the pot.

But I'm really open to suggestions!

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting post.

Why not bet out with overpair?

if he has overpair as well, is it autoraise for him?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, I should've bet out in both cases.

However, I still think this player, being an OAP, is fully capable/believes whatever pair he has is good, and will shove it in, making me expend more $ into essentially the same decision. (When to trust a mid OP)

It's entirely possible he'd shove in with AK, if he thinks I'm leading in with weaker undercards.

[amoeba]

wow, thats scary lag. he shoves it in on the flop with AK?

damn.....

well I would vote for 10 and up. any other pocket pair out of position is set or fold on the flop.

[fathertime]

I've encountered the same problem and folded kicking myself.

Don't know if this is the answer, but I've been thinking about taking this line:

1. Play tight. Reraise him preflop in position--which sets you up to take down the pot on the flop, whatever comes? Play the flop aggressively.

2. If out of position, limp raise and lead with a pot-sized bet?

What pocket pair you decide to do this with doesn't really matter--you're playing tight and he'll put your reraise on AA, KK, QQ or AK. Once you pot the flop, he should put you on an overpair. And so you should be okay unless he happens to have one of these hands or happens to have hit a monster.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
wow, thats scary lag. he shoves it in on the flop with AK?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he would - but really it's far more likely he has a pair, too, just him having random cards isn't unfathomable.

[jslag]

How much does he overbet the pot by on the flop? If you still have a decent stack behind you, then you should definitely raise his overbet on the flop.

If this happens a few times, then I'm more prone to back my stack with 88 and up against this type of player. Just let him auto-bet the flop, then push. The problem with this is that you have to make a stand at the right time. He already bluffed you out a couple times, so if he does the same thing next time, he could easily be holding AA-QQ.

You could also pull a stop and go if you suspect he's bluffing. Call his overbet on the flop, then lead the turn (push or make a substantial bet) when it's a non-scary card for your hand.

Another thing you might want to try and do is change seats so you have position on him.

In the end, you have to make a stand. Eventually you will catch him.

[amoeba]

well, I don't think you can check fold with overpairs like that. Then it means everytime he has AK, AQ, AJ, KQ in late position, he automatically wins unless if you hit set.

I still think you should lead out on the flop with overpairs.If he goes all in, call if its TT +. The fact that you think he would do this with just overcards makes the call easier.

another question, how does he respond to a preflop raise with say 22 - 88 ?

lets say you have TT in early position. you bet 4xBB. he calls. flop comes 234 rainbow. you bet out 2/3 pot to pot. how does he respond?

[greg nice]

theres hardly enough information about the LAG to answer this poll properly. before any action you must decide how you intend to play the hand. this depends on how he plays post flop. if by 'overaggressive' you mean he will bet/raise just about every opportunity, then you have a tough decision.

first, what do you do preflop? its irrelevant that you know hes overaggressive if youre out of position the whole hand. most of the time this will be no set no bet. if your pair is large enough you should be raising yourself.

so you call and make it to the flop. if you dont know how to play the hand, you shouldnt automatically assume that its correct to check to the raiser. even if you think he is overaggressive enough to continue betting ace high to the river, you dont really ever want to call the flop like you suggested. c/r if he respects c/r's. bet into him if he only calls when drawing and raises with goods.

i thought i had real ideas for this post but i guess not. this hypothetical is extremely read dependent that its impossible to respond correctly if all we know is that hes 'overaggressive'.

[okayplayer]

As mentioned, I'd lead into the pot when I flop overpair against the LAG. If he will push with AK as well as any overpair, then it gets a little sticky. Will he push any LAG-raisable overcards (like AJ, KQ, AT, KJ, etc...)? If so, then it is an easy call. But if he is only pushing AK and overpairs, then I'd say that you should call with TT and up. Here are some #s:
AK (16 ways): 75% fav., AA-JJ (24 ways): 10% fav., TT (one way): even, 99-66 (24 ways): 90% fav., and taking into account his possible sets (9ways, 10% fav) with lower pair, TT is +EV. 99 is -EV.
You can still be safe by playing the "no set no bet" rule, but I think you are leaving money at the table.

[SA125]

In no way do I mean this to be condesending or sarcastic. But I think the answer as to what you should do against this guy to beat him has nothing to do with your question.

He's got you frustrated because he's using his position as an advantage to beat you. That's great poker.

So your question shouldn't be "What's the minimum hand I can call with?".........It should be "What strategy should I use to combat an aggressive player who has position on me and plays it well?"

I think the answer is to figure out, based on what your strengths and comfort levels and aggression characteristics are, what you can do to beat him when out of position. It has nothing to do with calling standards.

If you think the answer is "I need at least TT to call with", you're really looking at the wrong picture.

The honest answer is probably 1 of 2 things. You can either out play him or you can't.

[BobboFitos]

The reason I wanted to have a poll is for the sake of a poll, thought it would be fun... hah.

Good post though.

[ QUOTE ]
If you think the answer is "I need at least TT to call with", you're really looking at the wrong picture.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but I also wanted to get a general consenus as to the difference of an overpair on the flop, because for some reason the fact that I have 9s, eg., vs 10s, allows me to call in what spot and fold the other.

The hand played out: NL50, I limp UTG with 88. 2 limpers, button (the OAP) makes it 6. He has 50 as well. The blinds fold, it's 5 to me, I call, the limpers fold. So 44 in each of our stacks, 15+ in pot.

Flop came 5 3 3, two hearts. I checked, he bet 20. I really wasn't sure of my move - I folded - he showed 7s - got frustrated. Similar situation happened again, slightly different, but that's what led me to my poll, because for some reason I'd play 10s the same way, except C/R all in except fold. I dunno, you said I'm looking at the wrong picture, so help me.

[soah]

As others have said, you really haven't given us enough information. How weak of hands is he raising with? If he's at like 50% PFR and will auto-bet every flop, you've got to take a stand with any overpair. Will he raise with 55 and play for his stack on a flop of 332? How low HE will go matters a lot in determining how low YOU can go. If he will back overcards with his stack, you need to figure out how weak of overcards he'll push with (AQ? AT? etc) and also figure out about what percentage of the time he'll fold to your raise. If you include all of the variables, it basically turns into a math problem. Obviously you don't know *exactly* how he will play each hand, so you can't get a perfect answer... but then again, the rest of us can't either.

If he is extremely LAGish preflop and you aren't comfortable facing his flop bets, you should consider leading into him quite often. If he is respecting your bets, lead into him with draws, even weak draws like bare overcards, gutshots, etc. If he is giving your bets no respect then push hard with any reasonable hand.

[Strollen]

Simple question why didn't you make a pot size bet on that flop? Most of the time with mid PPs you are going to have one and often two overpairs, and I can see checking to a PFR, but other than 8 or a straight draw this is a very nice flop.

If your opponent is agressive but not stupid he has to place you on PP 6+, or trip 5s, A3, or maybe nuts flush draw. Of all those possibilities, it is coin flip or he is a big dog except for where you have 66. So I am guessing he folds here.

If he calls you than you probably can put him on the same range of hands.

Now I am interested in what people thing you should do on if he calls you and the turn is A,K,Q or an undercard?

[SA125]

"The hand played out: NL50, I limp UTG with 88. 2 limpers, button (the OAP) makes it 6. He has 50 as well. The blinds fold, it's 5 to me, I call, the limpers fold. So 44 in each of our stacks, 15+ in pot."

That's a healthy raise, 6x the BB and 10% of his stack. There's 3 people in the pot already before him.

Maybe this is what he's thinking raising 77 on the button there. He doesn't have to worry about being out of position the rest of the way and may win it right there. If he gets called it'll probably be h/u, which it was.

If it looks like the flop hit you and you bet, he'll fold. If it looks like it missed you and you bet, maybe he'll call or maybe he'll fold. If it looks it missed you and you check, like this time, he'll make a play for it.

If you c/r, it'll probably be all-in. At that point he'll decide if you're on a draw with overs or a big pair and go from there.

So if you agree if he's thinking like that, you have to decide if he's on big pair or just overs and go from there. Calling isn't an option. Fold or c/r all-in.

Taking advantage of his position let's him get away from half his stack, where as you have to commit all or none.

Or, as another poster asked, why don't you just bet the pot and let him decide? I know you're answer is a question "What if the turn is an overcard? What do I do then?" Position. Being out of it sucks.