QJo, standard, over or underagressive?

[Slick Al]

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero calls, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: (4.40 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 folds.

Turn: (5.70 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls.

River: (7.70 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.70 BB

Flop raise is standard, right? What about the turn, and river when UTG wakes up. Should I concede I'm beat here, call down, or raise?

Al

[meep_42]

I'd raise and call a 3-bet unless UTG is a rock.

-d

[Slick Al]

Yeah, I'm thinking I misplayed the river, and should've raised. Since he didn't raise the turn, the flush isn't as likely.

Either way, it turned out he was a rock, and showed down KJ for the win.

Al

[meep_42]

The reason he needs to be a rock is because you're beat by any UTG limping hands with a J here, and it's pretty obvious he has one by betting out on the river. He doesn't have JT or he'd have slowed down, JQ is a split, KJ/AJ are losers. So, he'd need to be a loose pf player that would limp with J9/J8/J7 or an any two cards player for a raise to be profitable.

-d

[Yads]

Am I the only one that folds this pre flop?

[meep_42]

Nope.

I don't, but i'm too loose pre-flop.

-d

[k000k]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one that folds this pre flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, thats an auto-fold for me. It wouldn't matter if I was 1st in or everyone limped to me.

[witeknite]

If everybody limped to me, and I didn't figure a raise from the LP's I'd call.

WiteKnite

[JDErickson]

I suggest folding this hand in this position. I only play it from the button or blinds and only if I'm sure there will be no raise after me.

Basically you have a marginal marginal hand.

[tiltaholic]

QJo has earned auto-fold status until I figure out when to play it, if ever. It is not a good starting hand.

[young nut]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one that folds this pre flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

this hand is an auto-fold for me too, especially in this positon. The rare time that I do play this hand is either on the button (raise for attempted steal) or a complete in the sb. Other than that, this hand is considered junk by me.

[siccjay]

Yikes, I guess I'm finding out where my 20 VPIP is comin from. I limp with this normally at loose tables.

People are playing MUCH worse hands than this.

[tiltaholic]

hey sic- do you have pokertracker? if so, how're your stats with QJo? just curious. for me it's my #1 loser - that's what finally convinced me that QJo is pretty bad (and seems deceptively good)
-t

[PuertoKid]

QJo is a trouble hand. I generally fold it. However, if you play this hand I think you're looking for a straight draw or Q + junk.

If you think you are in a top pair fight when a J hits you have to worry about AJ and KJ as many people limp with those hands.

In a top pair fight when a Q falls, you have to worry about KQ. (the other hands that beat you are generally raise preflop).

[bigchips]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one that folds this pre flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

this hand is an auto-fold for me too, especially in this positon. The rare time that I do play this hand is either on the button (raise for attempted steal) or a complete in the sb. Other than that, this hand is considered junk by me.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you complete as the SB and the BB raises, do you call or fold to 1 bet PF?

[young nut]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one that folds this pre flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

this hand is an auto-fold for me too, especially in this positon. The rare time that I do play this hand is either on the button (raise for attempted steal) or a complete in the sb. Other than that, this hand is considered junk by me.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you complete as the SB and the BB raises, do you call or fold to 1 bet PF?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess this depends on how many people are in the hand. If it is 4 handed or less, I fold for one more bet. 5 or more and I think I'm getting good enough odds on 1sb to make the call, but I would play the hand very carefully.

[Slick Al]

Why is QJo an autofold? Per SSH this is playable in late position even going by the tight standards.

Thinking you're going to be up against your kicker+a higher card every time seems very weak tight to me (not directed at k0000k, more at the overall tone here).

QJo is probably a marginal play from CO-1, but that's where I'd start playing it, depending on the table.

Al

[k000k]

[ QUOTE ]
Thinking you're going to be up against your kicker+a higher card every time seems very weak tight to me (not directed at k0000k, more at the overall tone here).

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I'm just a tighty, I'm 17% in .5/1. I'm not necessarily scared of being dominated, I just dont like being in awkward positions later on in the hand... When you hit your hand isn't that great, especially in the lower limits where everyone comes along for the ride. There's a lot of overcards, a lot of ways QJo can go wrong.

If I was on the button or CO, I might open raise with it, if the blinds were rocks. I'd rather steal the blinds than see a flop. But then again, when does .5/1 table ever fold to the CO? If I got dealt QJo late, I'd have the 'fold' pre-select button checked before I even find out.

I guess I just think it's more hassle than it's worth.. QJo might be incredibly small +EV, I'm sure it makes your variance a lot higher than your bankroll. Picking a penny out the bottom of your garbage can is +EV too, but why bother?

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]

If it is 4 handed or less, I fold for one more bet. 5 or more and I think I'm getting good enough odds on 1sb to make the call, but I would play the hand very carefully.


[/ QUOTE ]

this might be ok if you don't trust yourself postflop, but 4 handed, with everyone coming along, you'd be getting 7-1 on the second call - just fyi. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

to those that automuck in: I sometimes play it after a few particularly bad limpers, and I usually muck it even on the button against typical opposition at 1/2, where I'm VP$IP 18. it normally just makes too many expensive second best hands to be messing around with. but against those opponents that will routinely play Q's and J's with worse kickers, and whose raises definitely mean I'm no good, there's no crime in playing it - just don't make it an auto-play.

[Yads]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is QJo an autofold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because Hero is not in CO or Button.

[GrunchCan]

Basically you have a marginal marginal hand.

This is a great description.

I'll often call from the CO, usually call from the button, always complete from the SB, and check at the BB. I never call a raised pot with QJo in any position, inluding the blinds.

[GrunchCan]

QJo is probably a marginal play from CO-1

CO-1 isn't late position; it's mid position. If you don't follow the recommendations strictly, then you aren't following the recommendations.

[Smasharoo]

CO-1 isn't late position; it's mid position. If you don't follow the recommendations strictly, then you aren't following the recommendations.


It's perfectly playable in a loose passive game from middle position. Pre-flop recomendations are a tiny miniscule part of playing winning poker, one, and two, it's *in line* with Sklansky and Miller's recomendations to play this in middle position at a loose passive table.

If you're following PF recomendations strictly regardless of game texture, you're leaving money on the table.