Playing 10-10 with no overcards on flop versus potential higher PP

[lehighguy]

Let us say you are play 3/6 party. You have 10-10 and you raise. SOmeone behind you reraises.

Now the flop is rainbow rag,rag, jack. You bet and get raised by the trip raiser. What do you do?

My feeling is he either AK or AQ and missed, hit jacks o AJ (less likely), or more liekly in my mind has a higher PPL JJ-AA based on the trip raise. I feel like I should fold here. Even if I am ahead (less then 50% I feel, then he can still spike top pair on turn/river, and I am out of position as well).

Let say that instead of a jack you get a 9 on the flop. Does your action change?

Now lets say someone raises and you are on the button and you reraise, they cap. The flop is rag, rag, rag, rainbow. They bet, you raise, they three bet. What do you do?

Now what I call the random factor. If I have data on a rock then I know he's probably got a monster. But lets say its a fishy who sees 30% of flops?, 50% of flops? Do you think maybe hes just as crazy cause you see these people 3-bet thier ace 5 suited, or do you think even fishes get aces somtime. What do you do?

[Mike Gallo]

I do not play Party Poker so take this at face value.

I would go into check call mode for the turn and river if no scary cards come and you do not improve.

[Sir Limps Alot]

Folding is probably the right play here. It is heads up. You probably should have checked the flop to the raiser and then check raised him. If he three bets you fold if he calls check and call the turn and river. You get more info by checking the flop and raising rather than betting the flop and calling.

[mtdoak]

Its simple, you are less than 50% certain you have the best hand. Play back at him on the flop (its cheap), and if he caps, you can be almost 90% certain you are beat (unless he is a total LAG)

[sthief09]

check-call the flop
check-call the turn
bet the river, or check-call if he's aggressive


it's a great line for situations like this

[Louie Landale]

If you are in ANY doubt about what to do when raised, then betting out at that flop is rediculous: you are already probably beat and got a bad flop, why would you wontonly invest a bunch of more money?

And if you have no doubt about calling the raise then you do even BETTER if you check-and-call him down; why discourage bets you intend to call?

Betting out like this is only desirable if it WILL cause him to play predictably; in this case call with overcards and raise with the overpair. And I do mean "cause", since if he's going to check overcards and bet an overpair, you do better by checking, figuring to fold if he bets or bet the turn if he checks. And, checking-and-calling then checking-and-folding is usually better than betting and folding, since you get to see a turn card the first way (although it DOES let the opponent see the river card with his overcards).

In the other situations, you have no reason to start capping with a probable loser if you figure to keep calling anyway.

Yes, fish get just as many AA as you do. But if they are LAGs and will 3-bet with A5s or better, TT flopped over-pair is golden. That means find a way to comfortably show this hand down; and that usually means let this sort of player get in the last bet. No shame in that. If you can bet or raise once and STILL call down comfortably, then do that.

Hyper aggression is best when it controls the opponent and gives you valuable information you cannot get another way; usually it means raise-and-fold so you get to get off your dead hand for a paltry 2sb. The situations you described obviously neither controlled the opponent nor gave you valuable information as evidenced by the fact that you kept asking "now what".

Think about the "now what" before you assert yourself.

- Louie

[Richard Berg]

I think this situation calls for check-check-bet, especially if you can river a nice scary card. Betting the flop seems dumb unless you know your opponent well enough to fold cheaply.

[Redd]

The check-call, check-call, bet line is advised very frequently on the SS and the Micro forums, and I've never understood what situations to use it in and why. Is the river bet a bluff, or does this somehow maximize wins when you're ahead and minimize losses when you're behind?

[mtdoak]

The flop is the cheapest street. I look at it this way when I am out of position: Would I rather lose 3 small bets: (bet into him, then three bet if he raises, fold if he caps) or 1 small bet and two big bets by check-calling? If he has a set of jacks or a high pocket pair, you are drawing to two outs, you can get out early.

[Mike Gallo]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are in ANY doubt about what to do when raised, then betting out at that flop is rediculous: you are already probably beat and got a bad flop, why would you wontonly invest a bunch of more money?

And if you have no doubt about calling the raise then you do even BETTER if you check-and-call him down; why discourage bets you intend to call?

Betting out like this is only desirable if it WILL cause him to play predictably; in this case call with overcards and raise with the overpair. And I do mean "cause", since if he's going to check overcards and bet an overpair, you do better by checking, figuring to fold if he bets or bet the turn if he checks. And, checking-and-calling then checking-and-folding is usually better than betting and folding, since you get to see a turn card the first way (although it DOES let the opponent see the river card with his overcards).

In the other situations, you have no reason to start capping with a probable loser if you figure to keep calling anyway.

Yes, fish get just as many AA as you do. But if they are LAGs and will 3-bet with A5s or better, TT flopped over-pair is golden. That means find a way to comfortably show this hand down; and that usually means let this sort of player get in the last bet. No shame in that. If you can bet or raise once and STILL call down comfortably, then do that.

Hyper aggression is best when it controls the opponent and gives you valuable information you cannot get another way; usually it means raise-and-fold so you get to get off your dead hand for a paltry 2sb. The situations you described obviously neither controlled the opponent nor gave you valuable information as evidenced by the fact that you kept asking "now what".

Think about the "now what" before you assert yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome explanation of what Sjthief09 and I said.

We gave the play you gave the detailed explanation. Bravo!!

[ErrantNight]

this is some more thoughts on the line josh (sthief09) recommends...

i think you should back your thinking up just a tad.

when you are first to act in a situation where your preflop raise was 3-bet leaving you isolated and out of position on the flop, your play is going to be dictated by the flop.

If you're holding a high pair (say your TT, or JJ, maybe QQ) against a singleton over, or you've got top pair good kicker (or top kicker... say, AK on a K high rag board), you should hit the check/call check/call bet line... the basic reasoning is that on the flop you're either way ahead or way behind. betting is only liable to induce a worse hand to fold, and a better hand to 3-bet you out of the hand.

i'm not sure that an overcard on the board makes much of a difference, here. except that it becomes easy to fold if a second overcard comes, whereas you should probably continue to call down if, say, you have your TT's, there's a 9 high flop, and a jack comes on the turn.

the only time you should really get to betting is if you're up against a very passive player. someone who you can safely fold to if they wake up, someone who's far more likely to call down when they haven't hit their overs but won't bet them if checked to.

a laggy fish's raise isn't going to tell you much with their raises, and they're precisely the sort of people that will be betting out on each street when checked to. so don't chip spew with them in these situations.

[ErrantNight]

it's recommended a lot because in general advice, after getting people to tighten up (particularly preflop) is to be aggressive, and bet pretty straightforward like.

this particular situation is a confusing one, particularly since the correct play is very passive (use the search function if you want more... there's several well discussed posts in the past couple months)

you use it in situations where you are way ahead or way behind headsup on the flop against a preflop aggressor. almost always this is a situation where you raised preflop, it was folded to someone in late position, who reraised, and was folded back to you, and you called. then, a ragged flop comes which hits you (either you have an overpair to the board, or have made top pair on the board with a kicker that's good but could be second best, or made top pair with top kicker but suspect an overpair... and with a high pair against a single overcard, typically not an A), leaving you with little chance to improve (i.e.: only the other 2 of your pair), and your opponent little chance to improve (i.e.: he needs to make a set with HIS pair). note that to SOME extent this disqualifies monotone boards, or two-colored boards with three to a straight, etc.

so the betting line is designed to get worse hands (say, overcards that haven't hit, or, a worse pocket pair, or, same pair worse kicker) to bet/bluff at you. when you bet, you're giving worse hands the opportunity to let go, and better hands the chance to raise you. and since you might also be getting reraised by worse hands that THINK they're best, you frequently don't know where you are.

you bet the river because you are unlikely to get reraised by a worse hand on the river, you do not want the river checked through when you have the best hand, and you will frequently be called by that worse hand which was betting into you on the last two streets for one more bet on the river.

i think that whatever limited equity there might be in getting the better hand to fold to this river bet is offset by the few times you are bluff-raised on the river by a worse hand.

and don't be afraid to make your own exceptions. if you KNOW your opponent will never call with a worse hand on the river, but will bet it every time, you obviously shouldn't auto-bet this. likewise, if you know your opponent is passive postflop and won't ever reraise you unless they have a MONSTER, you shouldn't be afraid to lead out. most of the time, you can't be terribly certain either way, hence this standard line.

[lehighguy]

So what your saying is this, if he has overcards then I should let him bet and call. If he has a monster like KK this allows me to see it for less.

The thing I worry about is this. If I check instead of bet he may just check it through and see free cards with his overcards. In other words I'm not getting bets in against the one type of hand I actually have beat.

[Cerril]

That's a worry, but that's why this is just a default play. Most players are going to bet their overcards when checked to. They'll put you on a similar hand that didn't connect and try to pick it up (or get you to put in bets with an inferior hand).

Or to put it another way, the 'raise/reraise PF, check/call flop, fold turn' line is familiar to most of them. When you call the turn they'll probably give up and hope to get that free showdown, hence the bet on the river.

But against your average unread player, I wouldn't fear missing bets. If you've got a read of someone who goes passive postflop, then by all means take a different line.