JTo from UTG+2....HUGE pot

[Harv72b]

Background: A terrible session for me. I'm tired, I'm taking bad beat after bad beat, I'm down to $33 from my $100 buy-in, and I should have stopped playing an hour before. Aside from that, great table.

Reads: MP1 is crazy loose, but generally passive unless he hits a big hand. Button is crazy aggressive preflop & has been raising hands that I wouldn't even play. He generally settles down after the flop, though. CO and SB had just sat down & I had no previous hands against either. The table in general had been very loose.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (12 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>(button is all in), <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, BB calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

River: (31 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, SB calls, Hero is all in ($1 more), BB folds, CO calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 36.50 BB
<font color="#009B00">Main Pot: 36.50 BB, between CO, Button, SB and Hero.</font>

Questions:
1) Would you have even played JTo here? I usually don't, but the table was loose &amp; I was borderline tilting.
2) Regardless of 1 above, where do you fold this hand? Common sense was screaming at me to fold on the turn, but fatigue &amp; apathy about my remaining chips conspired to keep me in. It also didn't hurt that the pot was so friggin' huge already.
3) Do you agree with the slowplay on the flop? My reasoning was that I wasn't going to push anyone off of 2 hearts, JQ, or even KQ at that point (to say nothing of the 4th T if it was out there), so I figured it was better to downplay my holding until the turn &amp; hope that the draws didn't come through (or that I hit the FH &amp; they did).
4) If you have a lot of time on your hands, feel free to take a stab at the other players' holdings. I'll share 'em later.

[Tosh]

Ok thats a fold preflop but ignoring that I think:

1) you should go to war on the flop. Continue with your original plan to check raise.
2) give serious consideration to folding the turn for 3 bets.
3) not play with only $29 on a 2/4 table.

[MoreWineII]

[ QUOTE ]
Questions:
1) Would you have even played JTo here? I usually don't, but the table was loose &amp; I was borderline tilting.
2) Regardless of 1 above, where do you fold this hand? Common sense was screaming at me to fold on the turn, but fatigue &amp; apathy about my remaining chips conspired to keep me in. It also didn't hurt that the pot was so friggin' huge already.
3) Do you agree with the slowplay on the flop? My reasoning was that I wasn't going to push anyone off of 2 hearts, JQ, or even KQ at that point (to say nothing of the 4th T if it was out there), so I figured it was better to downplay my holding until the turn &amp; hope that the draws didn't come through (or that I hit the FH &amp; they did).
4) If you have a lot of time on your hands, feel free to take a stab at the other players' holdings. I'll share 'em later.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. No. I think the fact that people are making it 2, 3, 4 bets before the flop is more reason *not* to play it. But you were on tilt, ok, we've all been there.

2. I don't fold it - anywhere. Well, cept preflop.

3. I think it's fine. No reason to scream out what you have now. And the only hands you'll fold are probably hands that you don't want to fold.

4. Sounds like you lost the hand, so I assume somebody had JJ (button?). Since you really sound beat up, I'm going to guess SB had you beat on the turn with QJ. SO has 99. At least you got the side pot?

Oh, yah, the all-in thing is bad.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
3) not play with only $29 on a 2/4 table.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was $33, but either way, it's less than $48. I lost money because of that on this hand, and usually know better. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
4. Sounds like you lost the hand, so I assume somebody had JJ (button?). Since you really sound beat up, I'm going to guess SB had you beat on the turn with QJ. SO has 99. At least you got the side pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually did win both pots. It felt weird to be the recipient of a miracle river card for once, and it's a feeling I don't hope to repeat any time soon. Well, maybe in a NL tourney where I end up all in preflop.

[nepenthe]

I don't blame your decision to play JTo in this position per se.

[ QUOTE ]
1) Would you have even played JTo here? I usually don't, but the table was loose

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an acceptable justification.

[ QUOTE ]
&amp; I was borderline tilting.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not.

[jokerthief]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually did win both pots. It felt weird to be the recipient of a miracle river card for once, and it's a feeling I don't hope to repeat any time soon. Well, maybe in a NL tourney where I end up all in preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not really that much of a miracle. Even if you could see the sb hand and it was QJ, it would be incorrect to fold. You are 4.6-1 to hit the full house or 4 of a kind. The pot is laying you 15-1 on the first call and 9.67 to 1 on the second. I think you played it perfectly and the chance that someone had JJ is more than made up by the times that they don't.

jokerthief

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
If you have a lot of time on your hands, feel free to take a stab at the other players' holdings. I'll share 'em later.

[/ QUOTE ]

As promised, here's what I was up against. Results are still in white in case anyone stumbles in here &amp; doesn't want their analysys of the original post swayed:

<font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has Qd Jh (straight, queen high). Pretty easy read here.
Hero has Js Td (full house, tens full of jacks).
CO has 4s 8s (two pair, tens and eights). I couldn't believe this one--what did he think, he was going to steal this pot on a bluff with the way everyone had been betting??
Button has 9s 9d (full house, nines full of tens). I saw one person above guess at 99, but I didn't see this one coming. I had Button pegged on an overpair the entire hand.
Outcome: Hero wins 36.50 BB. </font>

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Button is crazy aggressive preflop &amp; has been raising hands that I wouldn't even play.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with JTo.
2 folds, Hero calls,

[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
The table in general had been very loose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ill say it is.

[ QUOTE ]
Would you have even played JTo here?

[/ QUOTE ]

no.

[ QUOTE ]
I usually don't, but the table was loose &amp; I was borderline tilting.


[/ QUOTE ]

Great reason to keep on playing. Your opponents will appreciate it.

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless of 1 above, where do you fold this hand? Common sense was screaming at me to fold on the turn,

[/ QUOTE ]

I know we're getting close to the punchline of this joke somewhere. What kind of flop were you looking for when you limped into a likely raise preflop with JTo?

You may want to check your common sense meter while you're at it.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you have even played JTo here? I usually don't, but the table was loose [ QUOTE ]
This is an acceptable justification

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's not. You forget that there's a 'crazy' aggressive raiser behind him?

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
CO has 4s 8s (two pair, tens and eights). I couldn't believe this one--what did he think, he was going to steal this pot on a bluff with the way everyone had been betting??


[/ QUOTE ]

He almost helped get the best hand out on the turn though, didn't he? I mean, you thought of folding there.

b

[Mike Gallo]

Dude,

$100 buy in for $2-$4 appears small. You should also have more then 10 big bets on the table. If you only had $33 to play with, you should have left.

Preflop, I do not like to play that hand out of position, the button raised, now you see why I do not like to limp.

Ok I read the rest of the hand.

It appears you were short stacked and looking to hit lightning in a bottle. You did. I think you got lucky here. Ni han sir. Next time pack it in when your tired and short stacked.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
$100 buy in for $2-$4 appears small.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good, typical buyin for a 2-4 game.

b

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Regardless of 1 above, where do you fold this hand? Common sense was screaming at me to fold on the turn,

[/ QUOTE ]

I know we're getting close to the punchline of this joke somewhere. What kind of flop were you looking for when you limped into a likely raise preflop with JTo?

You may want to check your common sense meter while you're at it.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

I spent a lot of time thinking this hand over while I was theoretically working today, and I've come to the conclusion that the fact that I considered folding the turn was only more evidence that I should have quit playing before this hand came up.

I stand by playing the JTo this one time, not just for hindsight but because I do want to change my play up from time to time. There are a million &amp; one threads on here already about the merits of playing or folding JT, so I'll leave it at that. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[sthief09]

he's getting over 10-1 on the turn call. figure if an 8 or a 9 comes, he's usually good, and if a J comes he's always good, though he might chop sometimes.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would you have even played JTo here? I usually don't, but the table was loose [ QUOTE ]
This is an acceptable justification

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's not. You forget that there's a 'crazy' aggressive raiser behind him?

b

[/ QUOTE ]

There are two ways of looking at it. One is that JT becomes even less valuable if you're likely to be raised by a preflop LAG after you limp. I disagree in this instance, although I still very rarely limp with JTo any earlier than the Button.

JTo, while not a particularly powerful hand, is (usually, if you're not half-asleep &amp; out of your right mind) an easy hand to play. You either catch a monster hand or you don't--if you don't, you fold. If you do, odds are very good that at least one other player has a very good draw, if not a very good 2nd best hand. On a loose, generally passive postflop table like I was on, I think that makes it a fair play, if not a good one. Having an aggro PF raiser behind me just helps to ensure that the pot odds will be there for those 2nd best hands/draws to stick with it at least through the turn.

[Mike Gallo]

I do not like to buy in for 25 big bets, I prefer at least 50, however I did not realize he played this online till after I read the post.

When I sit at the table, I like to have a pyramid of chips. Once when I sat with SJthief09 at a 2-4 game, I bought in for 500 in white..... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I stand by playing the JTo this one time, not just for hindsight but because I do want to change my play up from time to time. There are a million &amp; one threads on here already about the merits of playing or folding JT, so I'll leave it at that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, you brought it up...

When they talk about playing JT, it's usually JTs, not offsuit in this spot for the most part.

Why did you want to change you play up? Were you not getting any action on good hands? This is about the only reason to change up. Given that, I still wouldn't have played JTo here. I think you played it because you weren't playing that well and made an excuse for playing it when you shouldn't have. There is no reason to play this in this spot if you're expecting a raise behind you as you mentioned. You're blowing chips doing that.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I do not like to buy in for 25 big bets, I prefer at least 50,

[/ QUOTE ]

That's fine, but you realize that a standard session buy in is 25-30BBs for most players.

b

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you played it because you weren't playing that well and made an excuse for playing it when you shouldn't have.

[/ QUOTE ]

All "clarity of hindsight" reasoning aside, you're probably dead on with this statement.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I do not like to buy in for 25 big bets, I prefer at least 50,

[/ QUOTE ]

That's fine, but you realize that a standard session buy in is 25-30BBs for most players.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, the standard online buy-in for 2/4 is $100, or 25 BB. I like to stick to the standard both because I don't want to call attention to myself by bringing in the big stack, and because it makes it easy on me to quickly figure how my session is going by what my current stack looks like.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
One is that JT becomes even less valuable if you're likely to be raised by a preflop LAG after you limp. I disagree in this instance,

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd really love to hear why you disagree in 'this instance' other than in hindsight.

[ QUOTE ]
JTo, while not a particularly powerful hand, is (usually, if you're not half-asleep &amp; out of your right mind) an easy hand to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, if you ignore your position and some of your opponents, sure it is.

[ QUOTE ]
You either catch a monster hand or you don't--if you don't, you fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? It's that black and white?

[ QUOTE ]
On a loose, generally passive postflop table like I was on, I think that makes it a fair play, if not a good one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, ignore the likely raise behind you preflop. One wonders what other 'good' plays you do.

[ QUOTE ]
Having an aggro PF raiser behind me just helps to ensure that the pot odds will be there for those 2nd best hands/draws to stick with it at least through the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like your own 2nd best hand that you just paid 2 bets preflop for.

You can't be serious as using this as a reason to play JTo in this spot and liking a raise behind you.

Hey, good luck in your game. I hope you're at least having fun at the table. Meanwhile, i'll be rereading all my books to relearn the value of JTo in EP in a likely raise from behind preflop situation. Your explanation/reasoning may have converted me from the darkside.

b

[Mike Gallo]

That's fine, but you realize that a standard session buy in is 25-30BBs for most players.

We arent most players we are Two Plus Two players. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

I always buy in for five stacks of 20 chips. See Gambling Theory and Other Topics for the explanation /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Mike Gallo]

Other then the limp preflop you played the hand fine.

You should sooner quit playing poker then to fold on the flop.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I always buy in for five stacks of 20 chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

So do i.

Which in a 2-4 game is $100.

b

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, if you ignore your position and some of your opponents, sure it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did I say to make this call every time? Did I say it was a right call to make? I said that I stand by my call in this one particular case, and outlined numerous reasons why. I did not ignore my position. I did not ignore my opponents. I factored all of that in. You like to argue. Fair enough; just please stick to arguing the facts, and not making snide comments that add nothing whatsoever to the issue.

[ QUOTE ]
Really? It's that black and white?

[/ QUOTE ]

Really. It's that black and white.

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, ignore the likely raise behind you preflop. One wonders what other 'good' plays you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

See above.

[ QUOTE ]
Like your own 2nd best hand that you just paid 2 bets preflop for.

[/ QUOTE ]

If my JTo was the 2nd best hand preflop, then I'd be stupid not to call with it. Or taken in a different light, you'd recommend folding AKo preflop because someone else might have 22?

[ QUOTE ]
You can't be serious as using this as a reason to play JTo in this spot and liking a raise behind you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am serious. As exhibit A, I offer a 36+ BB pot. You've read the books--now, assuming I rarely make this play at all (which I've said repeatedly from the first post), how often do I have to win that pot to end up ahead?

[ QUOTE ]
Hey, good luck in your game. I hope you're at least having fun at the table. Meanwhile, i'll be rereading all my books to relearn the value of JTo in EP in a likely raise from behind preflop situation. Your explanation/reasoning may have converted me from the darkside.

[/ QUOTE ]

You had a bad session or two today? That sucks...doesn't mean you have to take it out on me, though. If you disagree, fine--say why. That's all.

[ErrantNight]

dude, harv, WHAT?

you didn't really justify making this call because you won this pot, did you?

or compare holding JTo in early position, limping knowing there's a high probability of a raise behind you, knowing you're tired and on tilt... to holding AKo against someone who just flashed you their 22, did you?

or argue that you were right to make this call because JTo might be the second best hand? it might be the BEST hand, too! but that doesn't mean you should see this flop in this instance.

i mean, you've acknowledged you shouldn't have been in this pot with that little money... which means you shouldn't have even been LOOKING at cards before you bought in for more.

not only that, but i KNOW you didn't just say... I won a 36+bb pot, therefore, I don't need to win in this situation very often to make it correct. You could use that justification to play pretty much any two cards in any position for any amount of money if the cards fell in such a manner that you hit the flop hard and caught a miracle on the river while trapping a maniac and someone with a legitimate second best hand for the ride.

now, admittedly bernie's response was snide...

but that doesn't mean you should descend into this ridiculous line of defensive, results-oriented thinking.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, if you ignore your position and some of your opponents, sure it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did I say to make this call every time? Did I say it was a right call to make? I said that I stand by my call in this one particular case, and outlined numerous reasons why. I did not ignore my position. I did not ignore my opponents. I factored all of that in. You like to argue. Fair enough; just please stick to arguing the facts, and not making snide comments that add nothing whatsoever to the issue.

[ QUOTE ]
Really? It's that black and white?

[/ QUOTE ]

Really. It's that black and white.

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, ignore the likely raise behind you preflop. One wonders what other 'good' plays you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

See above.

[ QUOTE ]
Like your own 2nd best hand that you just paid 2 bets preflop for.

[/ QUOTE ]

If my JTo was the 2nd best hand preflop, then I'd be stupid not to call with it. Or taken in a different light, you'd recommend folding AKo preflop because someone else might have 22?

[ QUOTE ]
You can't be serious as using this as a reason to play JTo in this spot and liking a raise behind you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am serious. As exhibit A, I offer a 36+ BB pot. You've read the books--now, assuming I rarely make this play at all (which I've said repeatedly from the first post), how often do I have to win that pot to end up ahead?

[ QUOTE ]
Hey, good luck in your game. I hope you're at least having fun at the table. Meanwhile, i'll be rereading all my books to relearn the value of JTo in EP in a likely raise from behind preflop situation. Your explanation/reasoning may have converted me from the darkside.

[/ QUOTE ]

You had a bad session or two today? That sucks...doesn't mean you have to take it out on me, though. If you disagree, fine--say why. That's all.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're the best player EVAR!

(It's obvious that's all you wanted to hear, because bernie's exactly right with his criticism and you're still arguing with him)

[Harv72b]

I'm far from the best player ever. I'm probably one of the worst players on this forum, and I know it, and I'm trying very hard to improve to the point where I'm a more consistent (and bigger) winner. I stand by what I said...criticism is fine. Insulting my play and my intelligence is not.

Re: justifying this play by the pot I won. I'm justifying playing JTo on a table with this dynamic by the size of the pot that you will win when you hit big, which this particular hand exemplifies. Look at your possible holdings:

-You miss the flop, you fold to any bet. Easy.
-You hit top pair, you bet it as such, fold to a raise. Again, easy.
-You hit the OESD. Call if pot odds allow, fold if not.
-You hit two pair, bet it as such, and probably at least 50% of the table is on either a gutshot, OESD, or some sort of pair. With the PFR, they have pot odds to call at least to the turn, possibly beyond that. If they catch their straight card, you've got 4 outs to the FH. Big pot.
-You hit trips. With an uncoordinated board, you win a small pot depending on the quality of your opponents. With a coordinated board, you get what I got.
-You hit the straight. When that happens, you're going to be up against a lot of straight draws, two pair, and single pairs. Again, a lot of calling if not raising = big pot.

That's what I'm saying. You don't have to win very many JT hands in order to come out ahead on them. Again, against a loose, passive table like I was on, I still think it's a decent call preflop.

Finally, I'm not arguing that's a good call preflop, and I've said that it probably wasn't. Just saying that there is some justification beyond that I shouldn't have been playing at all at that point. It's certainly not such a bad call, nor such a bad argument, that it should lead to the kind of comments which some have directed at me in this thread.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
now, admittedly bernie's response was snide

[/ QUOTE ]

I think based on how this thread progressed, my response wasn't snide at all. I called him on his reasoning/justification, and it's wrong. However, if he wants to justify this preflop limp in this scenario with hindsight results deluting himself, fine. Im done with it.

Why even post the hand and ask for responses.

Nice hand, dude. Enjoy your 36BB pot the few rare times you get it.

b

[pudley4]

Somebody please tell me he did not just post this...

[ QUOTE ]

-You miss the flop, you fold to any bet. Easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, but you'll be missing the flop a lot, and throwing away multiple bets each time.

[ QUOTE ]

-You hit top pair, you bet it as such, fold to a raise. Again, easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO
NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO
NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO
NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO
(get the idea?) In a pot this big, there is no way you fold top pair to a raise.

[ QUOTE ]

-You hit the OESD. Call if pot odds allow, fold if not.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you not be getting pot odds at this table? You're relying on several people playing this, possibly for multiple bets - even if the flop is capped before it gets to you you should call (because you'll have the odds)

[ QUOTE ]

-You hit two pair, bet it as such, and probably at least 50% of the table is on either a gutshot, OESD, or some sort of pair. With the PFR, they have pot odds to call at least to the turn, possibly beyond that. If they catch their straight card, you've got 4 outs to the FH. Big pot.
-You hit trips. With an uncoordinated board, you win a small pot depending on the quality of your opponents. With a coordinated board, you get what I got.
-You hit the straight. When that happens, you're going to be up against a lot of straight draws, two pair, and single pairs. Again, a lot of calling if not raising = big pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Congratulations, in very rare cases you'll be ahead in a large pot. Do you even know the odds of flopping 2 pr, trips, or a straight? It's not even close to what you need to play this hand for multiple bets preflop.

It's a terrible call preflop. Period.

Here are the EV stats from pokerroom for JTo (all limits, all positions, 10 players). I bolded the relevant EV stats (UTG, UTG+1, UTG+2). Notice how terrible this hand is.


Total EV statistics for JT


Your query:
Pocket cards: JT
Position: any
Players: 10
Table limit: any
Position
Table limit


$1/2 -0.17 -0.17 -0.14 -0.06 -0.03 -0.09 -0.07 -0 -0.01 0.02

$2/4 -0.24 -0.18 -0.07 -0.11 0.17 0 0.08 0.06 -0.09 -0.01

$3/6 -0.12 -0.27 -0.16 -0.26 -0.14 -0.13 -0.12 -0.08 -0.04 -0.13

$5/10 -0.45 -0.16 -0.17 -0.25 -0.15 -0.07 0.22 -0.09 -0.05 -0.04

$10/20 -0.26 -0.34 -0.02 -0.13 -0.13 0.06 -0.01 0.15 -0.05 0.03

$25/50 -0.91 0.04 -0.2 -0.63 -0.45 -0.29 0.05 0.07 0.7 -0.6

[ErrantNight]

[ QUOTE ]
I think based on how this thread progressed, my response wasn't snide at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't insulting you, bernie... but I think that your response qualifies as "slyly disparaging" (the manner in which I was using the word)... hence my use of the word "snide"

I agree with you on all accounts... I was merely saying despite the tone of your response... his response was way, way out of left field.

[bernie]

I reread my response. The 'darkside' paragraph. I can see where it could be seen as snide i guess. However, that wasn't my intent of it. Sarcastic? Yes. More tongue-in-cheek. Basically, it was me giving up and stopping myself from any further debate as he just wasn't going to see the reality of it.

Another reason not mentioned would be for fun he decided to play it. That's actually valid as long as he realizes what he's giving up preflop in doing this. The fact that he's playing a hand with -EV in that spot for that hand. There's no argument against having fun at a table even if it is a losing situation. But I don't dig getting smoke blown up my ass about the valid 'tacticality' of it when everyone on here knows better. Don't try to pull the wool over our eyes. Don't insult our intelligence by suggesting this is a tactically superior play or even close to it. It's a losing play.

Im not saying that to be an ass, im saying it because it's a fact.

Cya

b

[Chris Daddy Cool]

you guys are all idiots. harv played this hand great from start to finish, says carpal\'tunnel me. don't listen to a carpal without the \ in his name. i am wasted.

end. of. story.