NL AK hand

I'm still trying to figure out NL. Tell me your thought process at each decision point.


online tournament 2nd round, blinds 10/20


two loose limpers (They have each played 50% of the hands so far) to me, 2 off the button. I raise it to 60 with AcKh. I think this is a pretty standard raise. Cut off calls, BB calls and first limper calls, 2nd limper folds. 4 to see the flop, pot is T255.


*** FLOP *** : [ 8d Th As ]


Checked to me. How much do you bet? I have T835 left, CO has T1085, BB has T775 and 1st limper has T625.


I bet 200. I thought that might discourage chasing at least. Cut-off calls, BB folds, and limper calls(!?). I'm getting very nervous here now. 3 players and T855 in the pot.


*** TURN *** : [ 8d Th As ] [ 2c ]


Now what?? Checked to me again. Would someone slow-play a set in this position? or two pair? Wouldn't they have raised the flop? I don't want to give a free card, but I'm not sure I'm ahead.

I bet T100. Both call again.


*** RIVER *** : [ 8d Th As 2c ] [ Kc ]


I think I feared 2 pairs more than anything because I pushed all-in when the K fell. Both of them folded and I won a T1,700 pot.


I think the all-in was a mistake. The K might have made a straight, and that's probably the only hand that would call my bet.


Comments on all streets appreciated.

David,


Here goes :


Pre-flop I think you should normally charge a bit more with two limpers. Your raise is really defined in terms of the odds it gives your opponents to call. With no limpers, you can make it 60, and your opponents are getting 90-60 (or 50 or 40 in the blinds) to call. With two limpers, now there is 70 in the pot before it gets to you. Put 60 in now and the BB and the limpers are all getting 130-40 on their call - it's too cheap. 3xBB when no-one is in yet should be upped to 5xBB with two limpers, do you see ? In that ballpark anyway.


Flop 200 is OK. Could bet a little more if you want.


Turn this is where I don't like your play, especially considering what you do on the river. You must have a specific reason for making a bet as small as this. "I don't know what to do" is not good enough ! Anyone with any kind of hand can choose to call or raise you at their leisure, note, even anyone who has already checked - you're opening it back up for a check-raise. If anyone was drawing on the flop it can only have been to a straight, and the 2d has missed it. With 2 callers I would probably go all in at this point unless I had some special knowledge about my opponents. Look at all the cards you don't want to see on the river with further betting, below :


River - I really hope you weren't going to go all in if a 6 fell, or a 7, or a J, or a Q, or a Ten, or an 8 - all cards that can make an opponent's hand. As it was you are probably correct that you're only going to get called by a winner.


If you do one thing in these tournaments, just one, it's don't make these undersized bets (and even worse, raises - it makes me feel ill). And if you do another, then don't follow up an undersized bet with an oversized one at the point where your opponent has either made his hand or not, and can make an easy decision.


Andy.

First off, I'm probably as new to NL as you are, so this advice may be way off base.


Personally I would have jammed this pot after the flop. With AK what else could you be looking to flop? If they both fold - GREAT, there are way too many other card combinations that can beat me by drawing out. AK with an A or K flopped is not a drawing hand, it's a jamming hand.


Your bet on the turn was pretty weak. T100 into a T855 pot. You're allowing J-9, 7-9, and QJ to hit their 8 outers very very cheaply. I'd go all in here and let the chasers pay dearly to catch up to me.


The K on the river is somewhat scary. It gives you top two pair, but it also gives QJ the nuts. I think you're all in bet was a bit much. If you get called you're beat, and then what?

I missed QJ having 8 outs on the flop - good spot.


Andy.

Thanks Andy,


I was hoping to hear from you. Hopefully I'm progressing here. I especially appreciate the pre-flop bet size comment.


I wanted to go all-in on the turn but was worried about someone slow-playing a set or two pair. Would you expect that they would have raised the flop in those cases?

Thanks,


I'm not happy at all with the turn or river bet, but I might still play the flop the same way. I just hate the thought of going out so early to a set of 8's or 10's. If i make it 300, I don't think the Q-J holder has the right odds anymore. Once I wasn't raised on the flop I think I can assume the set's aren't out there and probably push in on the turn.

your assumption that if you aren't raised on the flop means that the sets aren't out there is faulty. A lot of players - especially players online - get greedy with sets. If they see that you are betting out (and having raised before the flop), they will think their set is something they can trap you (and bust you) with. I see flat calls on the flop and then a huge raise on the turn as the "online standard" way of playing a set - raise big, hope for a call and a double through.


Just a thought,

Sam

If I had a set on that board it is unlikely I would raise on the flop. That board is about as perfect as possible assuming the original raiser has a big ace. Even that turn card is not scary for someone with 88 or TT. Sure there are straight draws out there but I may well wait until the river to pounce.


With 2 pair it is possible I would raise or lead into the original raiser or wait until the turn.


Ken Poklitar

ohKanada@hotmail.com

Preflop- A 40 raise is too small. I would raise the size of the pot.


On the flop- I would bet the pot, and probably fold if reraised, but maybe not. It would depend on the opponent and whether they could do this with a worse hand or a draw. If a flush draw was possible as well, I would definitely call all-in.


On the turn- All-in or check. I would expect the early position player that checked to be weak or drawing, so your only danger is the player behind you. I would therefore take my chances and bet all-in.


"Would someone slow-play a set in this position? or two pair? Wouldn't they have raised the flop? I don't want to give a free card, but I'm not sure I'm ahead. I bet T100. Both call again."


This bet shows weakness. I would expect the player behind would have raised the turn, if he was strong, to force the early player out. In fact after your showing weakness, a really good player could bluff here.


On the river- A loose player could have called with worse hands. Personally, I wouldn't have called you unless I beat you. This is because you show weakness on the turn then go all-in on river. It would look to me as if the K helped you. Your turn bet size was really bad.


If I was you, by this point in the hand I would have put both my opponents on weak hands or a draw, so I may have checked and called here, so the opponent could bluff the hand. If he did make the straight then I'd just have to bust.

Given your comments Ken, which is exactly what I was afraid of, how would you have played the hand?

David,


There's no need for me to repeat JGM's advice below which is good. The real point is, in most cases (and you have to be good to know the exceptions), betting small is the absolute worst thing you can do. You're much better off checking.


Andy.

> [preflop] I raise it to 60 with AcKh.


After two limpers, you need to raise more here. A pot sized raise would be to T110. You also have to consider now what you will do on the flop and manipulate the pot-size accordingly; therefore, I'd make a small overbet to T150, also to give myself some chance to win in right there.


> 4 to see the flop, pot is T255 [...] Checked to me. How much do you bet? I have T835 left


This is exactly the situation you wanted to avoid: 4 ppl. saw the flop cheaply (for about 5-10% of their stacks) and you are left with an umcomfortable stack size of 3.5 times the pot. Had you made it T150 preflop, you probably would be heads-up now with position, the pot would be T350 and you could push your remaining T745 in w/o a 2nd thought.


> I bet 200. I thought that might discourage chasing at least.


An open ender would get enough implied odds to take one off for T200. T50 more (i.e. a pot-sized bet) would make a considerable difference here (increase the price, cut the implied odds and decrease the chance of a multi-way pot, which further decreases the odds to draw).


> [turn] Now what?? Checked to me again. [..] I bet T100. Both call again.


A T100 bet into a T855 pot is completely useless. You either go in here, or give up (i.e. check, and check-fold the river for any substantial bet). Since the 2d is the best brick you could hope for, I vote for the former.


> [river] I think the all-in was a mistake.


If it was, it probably wasn't a big one. It's unlikely that someone stayed in there with a QJ gunshot and some players might already feel commited and call for the size of the pot. And you would have had a hard time time folding your twopair for a 1/2 pot-bet, anyway.


cu


Ignatius

> It's unlikely that someone stayed in there with a QJ gunshot


Ooops - Overlooked that QJ flopped a double gunshot. In that case, going in on the river was a clear mistake.


cu


Ignatius

Your preflop raise is to small. You need to raise at least the pot with this hand. When I have AK I am happy to take the pot with no flop. I would make it maybe 120 to go. There are a couple of reasons for this:


1) this most obvious is that you dont want them to see the flop cheaply.


2) perhaps the less obvious reason is that it allows you to make a more substantial bet on the flop (without overbetting), becaue the pot is bigger when they called the flop. So if you had made it 120 and got 2 callers there would be 360 in to pot (probably a bit more), now you really can move all in here when you hit your hand. You give them no chance to see the turn at all. If they flopped a set, well thems the breaks in an event this small.


This also helps you in the future, because players will be more reluctant to call your large preflop raise for fear that there whole stack is going in on the turn if they want to keep playing. BTW I would play AA the same way here.


Once you made the small preflop raise you now face a tougher decision on the flop. You need to make a real bet--200 is OK, I would go a bit higher (maybe 250), but moving in here is not great because it is simply to big a bet. If planning to move in on the flop when you hit after such a small preflop raise all you would accomplish is letting someone call for 40 to win your 800 stack when he hits. Thus he would be getting 20-1. if you made it 120 prflop, now he is only getting 7-1--not enough to flop a set (and that is assuming you also hit and will move in on the flop).


See the problem with this hands starts before the flop.


Anyway, on the turn you need to blow them off of the hand. You failed to do this.


You are correct, your river bet was a bad one. Only a hand that can beat you will call. because your turn bet was so small, you may as well bet small on the river to "sell the hand." Maybe 200 or so. You will have to call an all in raise, but you are better off inducing a bluff then driving them out.

I agree with what most responses have said. I would have raised a bit more preflop. On the flop your bet was a tad low but not terrible. The turn bet was the bad one. Either check or go all-in. I probably go all-in.


It is awfully tough to defend against sets and flopped 2 pair.


The nice thing about live tournaments is you can get a feel for your opponents. It is much harder in on-line tournies.


Ken Poklitar

ohKanada@Hotmail.com

Haven't looked at the other posters, but I'm sure that they all told you your initial raise was too small.


In poker of all kinds, you should consider at all times the size of the pot when making a decision. In no limit one decision that needs to be made is how much to bet or raise. A "standard" raise of 60 when you are the first one in and the blinds are 10 and 20 sounds reasonable, but when two people have limped, the pot is now 70 and the first caller is getting 3.25 to 1 on his call of your raise--and should probably call with suited connectors or a small pair. I would raise to T180-T200 here.


On the flop again, I think you bet too little--although in this case you were at least in the right ballpark--almost the size of the pot.


Dramatically underbetting the pot on the turn was another mistake in my opinion. If I was real scared by the calls on the flop I might just check in next to last position rather than give someone an opportunity to raise me out of the pot.


If someone has a j-9 or a qj for open enders or even a KQ for a gut shot, you are offering them 8.5 to one and they should take their chances. If I had a J-9 or qj and you showed this much weakness I would move in. Would you have thrown it away at that point? Could you have thrown it away? Because you probably should unless you were looking to induce a bluff.


If I don't sense that anyone already has me beat I would move in on the turn and try to end it right there.


On the river, given all the previous action, I would probably have checked rather than moving in. But moving in here is not terrible. Betting 100 on that turn is terrible.

Brad,


You'll go far in NL by not overthinking! Solid advice!