And I Still Can't Play Paired Flops (help pls)

[Unarmed]

I'll figure these out....some day.
Advice on every street is greatly appreciated.

Thx

$5 PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed)

MP1 (t925)
MP2 (t1670)
CO (t1165)
Button (t1200)
Hero (t4530)
BB (t1815)
UTG (t2195)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls t50, MP1 folds, MP2 calls t50, CO calls t50, Button folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t250) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets t150</font>, BB folds, UTG calls t150, MP2 calls t150, CO folds.

Turn: (t700) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets t400</font>, UTG calls t400, MP2 folds.

River: (t1500) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets t400</font>, Hero calls t400.

Final Pot: t2300

[Sluss]

My first instinct would be to raise this pre-flop to 200. At the 5 your going to get calls though, but the guy who limped UTG with 35 might fold. /images/graemlins/grin.gif I do like to bludgen people preflop if I have the chip lead. Trying to pick up pots without a flop.

The flop bet is good. I might check raise the turn. And he might even check behind and you save t400 if he did make trips.

[Vish]

This response really confuses me. A raise here would be Hero shooting himself in the foot. He's out of position, and could easily be dominated.

I don't like the flop bet either. It says to everyone, "I have a jack." If he gets called, he's probably beat. Hero should check and see what the other two do. If they're betting hard, there aren't many worse hands they could have, as it's not a drawing board.

Check-raising the turn sounds even worse, as UTG can't be expected to suddenly bet here, unless he has a four. Paired flops must be played carefully. If you bet out in position, ask yourself certain questions: What does my bet here represent? If you know the answer, how they respond should give away their hands. Out of position, you should play top pair more passively than you would in position.

[TheDrone]

Preflop is ok. I don't bet out on the flop in this multi-way unraised pot though. The only times I would bet out is heads up, or maybe three-way if there was a preflop raise. You definitely have to shutdown on the turn after two callers.

[Irieguy]

OK, fundamentals will give you the answer to this one.

Preflop: complete is fine. Raise and fold are both bad.

Postflop: here's where you need to remember poker fundamentals. You are in the worst position in a multi-way pot. There are only 2 ways to win a poker hand, 1)show down the best hand, and 2)outplay your opponent(s). What are your chances of outplaying 6 opponents from the SB? Not good. So, then, betting is only valid if you're doing it for value. Does your hand have enough value to warrant a value-bet from up front? Negative. Why not? Because there are too many ways for the people behind you to outplay, outdraw, or have already outflopped you.

Therefore, keep the pot small, be smart, call for value when warranted and hope you can showdown a winner for a small pot if you don't improve greatly.

Irieguy

[ChrisV]

The first response is nuts. I'd call the preflop raise to 200 suicidal, but that would leave no word to describe the turn checkraise.

The flop looks ok, I would probably bet 200.

On the turn you're screwed. Ask yourself what two people are calling with on a flop like that. Sometimes they have two worse jacks, or a worse jack and a mid pair, but most of the time you're in deep trouble here (doesn't even have to be the 4, could be KJ or AJ). You should be checking here and most of the time folding. Sometimes you have to admit you're out of position and suck it up - you're beaten most of the time here anyway.

[ChrisV]

Huh? "Outplaying your opponents" is not a method of winning a poker hand. If it were, to quote Hellmuth, I guess I'd win them all. The correct second method for winning a poker hand is if all your opponents fold. My bet on the flop largely hopes to accomplish that. If I'm playing on the sort of insane table where I'm going to be called in three spots on a nothing flop like this by guys with no pairs, then I might have to check and let this one go and hammer them with good hands later.

Most of the time if betting out is going to get you into trouble, checking doesn't help matters. Suppose you check and it checks around to the cutoff or button, who bets 200. Now what? Are you going to fold? What's the plan on the turn? I'd rather bet the flop, and if I'm called I'll go passive on the turn. Not sure what it is, but out of the following sequences:

Me: Check
Cutoff: Bet 200
Me: Call
(Turn blank)
Me: Check
Cutoff: Bet 500

and

Me: Bet 200
Cutoff: Call
(Turn blank)
Me: Check
Cutoff: Bet 500

To me, it looks a lot more likely I'm losing to cutoff on the second sequence. At the very least it's no more likely I'm losing to cutoff on the first sequence, so what did checking the flop accomplish?

[Unarmed]

Chris, doesn't your line just turn my J into a 2? Betting the flop and check/folding the turn only works if I take it down on the flop. Why do I need a J to do that? Is the fact that there's one less J in the deck when I have one enough to justify betting? It better be because there's no way I'm bluffing into 4 morons at $5.

Not saying your line is wrong, I have no clue what the correct line is here. I DO know that I bleed chips on paired flops where I don't have trips and haven't raised PF so I'd really like to completely flesh this one out.

Thanks.

BTW AJ is raised by these guys 99.9% of the time and KJ at least 50% of the time. I was only worried about a 4, and BB folded to my flop bet, so the most likely suspect was gone.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
Huh? "Outplaying your opponents" is not a method of winning a poker hand.
The correct second method for winning a poker hand is if all your opponents fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

My definition of ouplaying somebody is getting them to fold a better hand, or a correct draw. Perhaps the terminology I use with my friends in town does not apply to the world-wide audience of this forum... fair enough.

We would play this hand differently. I think that which method is better depends entirely on the player's ability to make correct value-based decisions. So, this is going to be different for everybody. It may be that your method is best for you, and my method is best for me. But what's fun about poker theory is that it's possible that the converse is true. Now I need to think about it... and I may get better as a result.

For all of you newbies... if the on-line SNG is the goose that lays golden eggs, then this forum is like vocational school for hatchery workers.

Irieguy

[ChrisV]

Well the fact that you have a J isn't insignificant. I can never remember how you do that combinations stuff but there has to be a significantly lower chance of a J cropping up in 10 cards if there are 2 of them in 40 cards instead of 3.

When called, you often don't checkfold the turn. If you get called in two or more spots you should always check and usually fold. If you get called by one guy, it depends on the guy.

The check is an attempt to extract information without putting in chips. It depends what you think of the guy - is he one of those guys who calls basically any flop? Then fire again on the turn. Do you think he has the stones to fire out 500 chips when checked to on the turn with only something like J9? If not, then check the turn.

Possibly this advice is useless, as I play the 215's, but I find most guys aren't willing to fire a decent size bet without a good hand. My approach on a lot of flops where I miss is to check and see what they do. Say I raise AK and get called. On the flop Qxx, if a bet will pot commit me, I'll often check instead. If I find the bet unconvincing, I raise allin.

[ChrisV]

Well, if you want to use that definition, then there's a third way of winning a poker hand - betting and taking it down when nobody has either a better hand or a correct draw. I guess you could call this "not letting yourself get outplayed" since by checking, you give the opponents a chance to either check through (making their two outers, or whatever, "correct draws") or bet strongly, forcing you off your better hand.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "ability to make correct value-based decisions" but I think you'll agree that this is a war of information. If you fold every time you're too tight, if you call down every time that's too loose. Somehow you have to acquire enough information to make correct decisions. I don't think checking the flop does that often enough as if someone bets 200 and it folds back to me I won't know what to do, either now or on the turn. Checking may have worked well this hand as if it goes bet and someone calls back to you, fold seems clear, so you save 200 chips. I think this is a rarer occurrence though.

[Irieguy]

Yeah, that's the main problem with a lead-out bet, in my opinion... you give your opponents too juicy an opportunity to outplay you. This is mainly because of the number of opponents in this case.

There are so many possibilities where you could be forced to fold what is likely the best hand: any combination of two people getting froggy will force you to fold, whereas they may have been content to check the flop... or more commonly, one goof-ball can make a move with a small pair and your call can get all of the overcards out.

In order for this to work you have to be good at knowing when to call and when to fold. I understand that this is easier said than done... but throwing a few hundred chips at 6 opponents with position on me doesn't seem like a profitable play. Check-folding seems better than bet-folding to me.

Irieguy

[rci97]

I guess I look at this hand in a kind of simple way:

1) Unraised pot with 5 players (who literally then could almost have anything)

2) I have no problem with the flop bet.

3) Once you get not one, but TWO calls, on a board that doesn't contain any draws, how can you not shut down and try to play as small a pot as possible?

4) After the flop bet, you still have a very comfortable chip position (~4300). Your two callers have far less chips and they are calling with a board that has neither a flush draw nor a straight draw. You have no need to gamble. Why continue betting a hand, out of position, where you quite possibly could be almost drawing dead? Obviously, there's no way you're going to get a player holding a 4 to fold this hand. I gotta believe that the chances that one of these guys either has a 4 or a higher jack is pretty high. Sometimes, you're just beat. Try to show down this hand as cheaply as possible. Just my opinion....

[texasrattlers]

[ QUOTE ]
I was only worried about a 4, and BB folded to my flop bet, so the most likely suspect was gone.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the $5 SNGs there is no most likely suspect to hold a 4 ... they are ALL likely suspects w/ 5 limpers at BB 50. Limpers with hands like 45 and A4 are not at all uncommon.

I agree with the advice to try to stay in the hand as cheaply as possible. So I just check the flop and see what the action is. Someone with a 4 should check the flop, so you may even get a free card where you might find a J on the turn. So even with your big stack lead, I would have no problems laying this hand down if there is any significant betting at all. And your kicker is not all that great anyway.

Weak/tight? I don't think so. Just tight/aggressive as you will wait for better opportunities to build you chip lead, as you probably already did to get the stack size you have at this point.

[Sluss]

Okay the check raise is a bad idea. /images/graemlins/frown.gif I'm just looking for a way to make this guy make a decision.

I am only saying raise this pre-flop to make myself more of the table bully. Saying to the table look your not going to be able to see cheap flops anymore. Playing my stack more than the cards. At this level you still have a very deep stack with the chip lead a little bully here can give you fold equity later. Of course that is just my theory.

I will admit that at $5 tables. The smart play is to just show down the best hand. Something I needed to consider better.

[captZEEbo1]

one piece of advice I've read (in Super/System) is that you should not be losing lots of chips in an unraised pot. Since this was unraised, you really have no idea what people have, making your hand relatively weak. With 5 people seeing a paired flop, you really have no idea what people have. I'm definitely check-calling on the flop. If an A hits and someone hits it, so be it. By checking, you can represent the slowplayed 4 too, so if someone has KJ, you don't lose too much $. And if someone has the 4, they are checking the flop too. If it's checked around, just bet 100 on the turn.