$50 (6 max) hand

[zephyr]

Sorry dont have the hand history,

Hero - $75
UTG - $50
CO - $75

Hero is dealt KJ hearts

UTG raises to 3, CO calls, Hero calls. 3 way action to the flop.

Flop ($10.50)

Qc 10h 4h

UTG bets $6, CO moves all-in, Hero??

Results to follow.

[Benal]

This is a read dependant call. If CO has made similar moves before, I call... You have lots of outs.

[schwza]

easy fold pre-flop. you're asking to be dominated playing KJ (suited or not) against a PFR.

i think you should fold the flop. that big overbet push could easily be the nut flush draw (or utg could have it, and he might think he has the odds to call being the 3rd person in), in which case you're drawing very thin. playing this hand against a set is pretty mediocre too.

[beta1607]

"This is a read dependant call. If CO has made similar moves before, I call... You have lots of outs."

How is this read dependent?

Best case scenario is CO is over playing top pair in which case you have 18 outs more likly you have 15 outs assuming the player has 2 pair or a set. If you call you have about 1/3 chance of winning the hand and the pot is not laying suffiecent odds for a call.

[zephyr]

This is 6-max, KJs is fine to play preflop for a raise.

Let's see what the CO could have here. Against top two pair I'm exactly even money here, and against a set I'm about a 3:2 dog. Even against a hand like A5 hearts, I'm still not even a 2:1 dog.

I think CO would also make this push with Qx hearts, or AQ, KQ. All of which I'm ahead of.

How do you factor in UTG?

[Tilt]

Check it out:

You are in great shape here....

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kh Jh 560 56.57 430 43.43 0 0.00 0.566
Qs Ah 430 43.43 560 56.57 0 0.00 0.434

Good to call here....

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kh Jh 495 50.00 495 50.00 0 0.00 0.500
Qd Td 495 50.00 495 50.00 0 0.00 0.500

I think good to call here, especially if you get a 3 way:

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kh Jh 399 40.30 591 59.70 0 0.00 0.403
Qs Qd 591 59.70 399 40.30 0 0.00 0.597

Even here you are good to call...

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kh Jh 452 45.66 538 54.34 0 0.00 0.457
Ad Ah 538 54.34 452 45.66 0 0.00 0.543

This is all you are afraid of...

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kh Jh 276 27.88 714 72.12 0 0.00 0.279
Ah Qh 714 72.12 276 27.88 0 0.00 0.721

No way im folding this.

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
i think you should fold the flop. that big overbet push could easily be the nut flush draw (or utg could have it, and he might think he has the odds to call being the 3rd person in), in which case you're drawing very thin. playing this hand against a set is pretty mediocre too.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have six outs to make a straight and six outs to make a pair against the nut flush draw. Hardly drawing thin. (If you're referring to all three of you ending up all in, one with top pair and one with the nut flush draw, then you can still make your straight, so it's not the end of the world. That seems rather unlikely though.)

Here are some possibilities if you get all-in against one opponent:

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kh Jh 370 37.37 620 62.63 0 0.00 0.374
Ah 2h 620 62.63 370 37.37 0 0.00 0.626

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kh Jh 399 40.30 591 59.70 0 0.00 0.403
4s 4d 591 59.70 399 40.30 0 0.00 0.597

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kh Jh 495 50.00 495 50.00 0 0.00 0.500
Qs Ts 495 50.00 495 50.00 0 0.00 0.500

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kh Jh 609 61.52 363 36.67 18 1.82 0.624
Qs Js 363 36.67 609 61.52 18 1.82 0.376

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kh Jh 588 59.39 402 40.61 0 0.00 0.594
As Qs 402 40.61 588 59.39 0 0.00 0.406

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kh Jh 531 53.64 441 44.55 18 1.82 0.545
Ks Qs 441 44.55 531 53.64 18 1.82 0.455

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kh Jh 563 56.87 427 43.13 0 0.00 0.569
Qh 9h 427 43.13 563 56.87 0 0.00 0.431

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kh Jh 360 36.36 0 0.00 630 63.64 0.682
Ks Js 0 0.00 360 36.36 630 63.64 0.318

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kh Jh 276 27.88 714 72.12 0 0.00 0.279
Ah Qh 714 72.12 276 27.88 0 0.00 0.721

Yes you are an underdog if someone has the nut flush draw. But you're not in terrible shape unless they have *exactly* Ah Qh. If you end up all in against a single opponent your equity will vary somewhere between 40-60%. I can't remember what the betting was in the hand that was posted but from here it should be a simple math problem to see if you have odds to suck out if you think you're behind. And if you think your equity is over 50% then just put all the money in and pray.

[soah]

I wish you would have posted 10 minutes sooner and saved me the trouble of duplicating your work. =(

[Tilt]

Funny. Next time i'll let you do it.

[joker122]

was this 3 handed or 6 handed, or what?

[zephyr]

[ QUOTE ]
was this 3 handed or 6 handed, or what?

[/ QUOTE ]
sorry, should have been clearer, it was 5 handed at the time.

[zephyr]

I call instantly, UTG thinks for a bit and then calls.

Turn 9c
River 7h

CO turns over AQ no heart,
UTG turns over KJ

I take it down with the flush. I never really considered KJ here, but UTG probably made a decent call as he was getting good odds.

[goodguy_1]

This is 6-max, KJs is fine to play preflop for a raise
No it's not fine to call a raise with this cheese...schwza is right.Calling 3x raises w/KJ is marginal.Suitedness is overated in NL.So you are basically calling a pre-flop raise w/KJ.You are asking to get trapped and that is exactly what has happened.Playing marginal hands for raises pre-flop can be done IF you are a very good/great player able to shuck and jive otherwise I'd muck this cheese unless the pre-flop raiser is a maniac.

[gergery]

It’s a close decision and dependent on what CO’s push means, but I’d probably fold.

You must call $72 to win $88.5 (10.50 in pot + 6 UTG + 72 in COs stack), so you’re getting so you need a 44.8% winning equity in the hand to make this a good play (if UTG folds).

But as others have pointed out, you don’t have equity that good if CO has Axs (his most likely holding here, IMHO). You also don’t have odds if CO has a set. If he has AA/KK then you are basically EV neutral. Even if he has TP or two pair, you’re not giving up much EV as you’re only ~ even money with a relatively small overlay. You really need to put CO on TPTK a fair amount of the time to really make this particularly EV+.

And if you’re wrong and CO has AQh then you’re hosed. And if UTG comes in too and you’re up against a set and flushdraw, then you’re EV is clearly negative.

Net, this is one of those situations where no matter what the opponent has you are not very EV positive or negative here, and on average you are more likely to lose the hand but are getting some overlay – so whatever decision you make can’t be that wrong, but definitely has some variance.

--Greg

[Benal]

What he (gergery) said

[gergery]

I think UTG’s call was terrible.

And if you’d known your opponents were this bad (whole stack with TPTK, calling 2 allins with just OESD), then calling CO’s all-in is clearly correct.

[zephyr]

This is party poker, and I think that the CO is pushing a weaker flush draw, or top pair here often enough to make this call fairly +EV.

I'm typically an SNG player, and have only played around 5k hands of NL ring. In my very limited experience it wouldn't surprise me to see CO have 56, 67, 78, 89 of hearts, or something of the like.

Only my opinion,

Zephyr

[schwza]

i initially said to fold, but i think that was wrong - you have enough to call here. i didn't realize that you'd be in not-terrible shape against the nut flush draw, even Ah Qh.

however, coldcalling with KJs is horrible. if the flop comes Kxx, are you going to feel comfortable putting your stack in? how about Jxx? even on KKx, you can't be too surprised if you put in all you chips and get busted by AK. the problem is not so much that KJs won't win hands - it's that KJs almost never wants to go to the felt (the hand excepted).