common turn situation

[turnipmonster]

I realize this is player dependent, but against your typical 5/10er I rarely pay this off. thoughts?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.40 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3.20 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 6.20 BB

[Joe826]

well one of us is wrong most of the time, because i pay this off almost always. anyone?

[etizzle]

could he not have KT or K9? He probably would've raised the flop to see where he was at, but I still pay this one off.

[turnipmonster]

ok, so how does it change things if the 8s comes on the turn and you get checkraised (assume a 2c was the 3rd flop card instead)? what changes if it's the 8h?

I am curious if either one of those things makes anyone take a different strategy.

--turnipmonster

[Mike Mussina]

You could have checked the turn. See HEPFAP p.87

Even if he was on a heart draw, you can make the bet back when he takes a shot on the river.

[imported_stealthcow]

i wouldn't check the turn. its a straight up value you bet, and for the most part people call down with a lower pair, or even an overcard. that check raise probably means he has you dominated with a 3rd 8 or a better kicker, and either thinks you are semi bluffing with a flush draw or you have a weaker king then he does. either way you lay this down, unless you nkow this guy can try and get tricky

[turnipmonster]

yeah checking the turn doesn't seem all that attractive. I will get paid off with a worse K or a heart draw or random pocket pair too much of the time I think. it's a situation where my opponents will call down with anything, so I really need to maximize value bets against them since my bluffing equity is so low.

--turnipmonster

[Joe826]

yeah checking the turn sucks. i don't know. if i know the player i'm against is unimaginative and couldn't pull a bluff turn check/raise off then i'm obviously folding, but the average 5/10'er does ALOT of weird stuff and i very rarely credit them with sane play (especially when i only have to be right 1 in 5 or 6 times). anyone other experiened players wanna get in on this? i'm curious.

[turnipmonster]

FWIW, I would tend to call down more if the 8 came on the turn as opposed to on the flop, since most players will bet an 8 on the flop. thoughts? I think this is sort of interesting and would love to get some more experienced players thoughts. schneids? diablo? what factors do you consider in situations like this?

--turnipmonster

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
You could have checked the turn. See HEPFAP p.87

[/ QUOTE ]

On page 87 we read about how to play AA or KK when we raise preflop:

[ QUOTE ]
Now suppouse the flop come with a medium or small pair. Its checked to you, you bet, and a tough player calls. On fourth steet, the correct play is often to check behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason is that a tough player calling is bad news, he will not call without a plan. He will fold a lower hand if you bet and checkraise if he is ahead (and sometimes cr as bluff). Therefore u check, hoping he will bluffbet river (which he often does), you call cause he can still have that trips.

But a normal player at 5/10 is not a tough player and will very often call flop without a plan, and without being able to lay down a worse hand then yours, specially not on a paired flop because "they know that flop didnt hit u". Therefore you valuebet.

Its important to remember that some of the plays in HEFAP only work against tight-aggressive, thinking players.

[Saborion]

I assume they will sometimes c/r the turn with Kx here as well, but that you usually fold because this won't happen often enough to make a calldown in a pot that small correct?

Up against a decent player, you'd check behind on the turn quite often though, since you can expect to be check-raised just about the right amount of times, that is, your opponent will check-raise an 8, sometimes Kx, sometimes a flush draw (that will hit 1/4), and sometimes a smaller PP.

Or?

[PokerNoob]

I pay this off too, as it could easily be blind defense gamesmanship. Wouldn't he usually wait to nail you on the river with an eight? Its too much risk of you folding when you might be willing to 1) fire that final barrel with A high or something, or 2) actually have a hand you want to show down.

[Benjamin]

Default for me would be to call down. I think you'll see enough bluffs, semibluffs, weaker kings, and other assorted garbage that you beat to make it worthwhile.

A player read could make all the difference, of course.

Sometimes I wonder if I just call down way to much in these kind of situations ... I should probably try to analyse my database to see what my history is like. It feels like I win enough to keep on though.

B.