Official Martial Arts Thread

[nicky g]

Thought I'd break this off from Men's Pride gambling thread into a separate thread. Anyone do martial arts here? I've been doing a sort of self-defence-oriented mixed martial arts class for the last couple of months; not a proper MMA class cos we don;t fight competetively and it's nothing like as hardcore, but it's basically a mix of styles including some boxing, grappling, karate and others plus a lot of self-defence drills taught as self-defence, rather than ring fighting. I do it mainly because it's fun and good exercise. I'm not really interested in learning how to fight and I think the only way you can really do that is to fight a lot, which I think is -EV. At college I did a year of Japanese JuJitsu, which was basically self-defence applications of Judo. Anyone else do one?

Any more opinions on the best martial art? Bruiser has said Kung Fu and CCass Tae Kwon Do. I think that a half-decent boxer could beat the crap out of most high ranking KungFuers and TKDer, because they're practice what they preach hard and can take hits, as could a relatively inexperienced grappler/Brasilian JuJitsu player (for the simple reason that it's relatively easy to take someone to the ground, and once you're there the Kung Fu and TKD guys are screwed). Any other thoughts?

I did a poll for this earlier but my PC crashed and I can't be arsed to do it again.

[turnipmonster]

I studied kung fu for a little while and tae kwon do for a long time. wing chun is IMO an extremely practical style and where I studied it was heavily geared towards street fighting and real world application. TKD (at least where I studied) was more of a sport, where most of the sparring we did was tournament rules only.

if I wanted to study again, I would definitely study wing chun kung fu.

--turnipmonster

[Men the Master]

A pro-wrestler like the Undertaker can probably take down and then beat down a boxer like Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis. He would be too big for these guys. Even though they are fake, the pro-wrestlers are in great shape. Just check out the physiques of Triple H and Chris Benoit. Plus, these guys probably know how to fight for real (Tazz, for example, is a black belt in judo and Kurt Angle is an Olympic gold medalist, Booker T was a pro-boxer).

Pro-wrestling wins. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[astroglide]

events like ufc and pride are the best COMPETITION martial arts. in the real world if you're laying on the ground for 10 minutes heeling somebody in the kidneys his friend is going to crack a barstool over your head. i would still want lots of grappling/jujitsu but i think you'd have to throw something in there that is skilled at evasion/blocking/striking instead of just taking a hit on the top of your head while you tackle somebody before choking them or breaking their arm.

[nicky g]

Yeah there is clearly a big difference.

"i think you'd have to throw something in there that is skilled at evasion/blocking/striking "

Well boxers do this. I think most MMA fighters train in striking etc as well as grappling.

Also even though a lot of martial arts claim to be able to teach you to fight multiple opponents, if they are remotely competent fighters you are in bad shape no matter how great you are. Same goes for unarmed against a guy with a knife or other weapon.

I agree in a real life bar or street fight you don't want to go the ground if you can avoid it.

[Topflight]

It seems to me that striking martial arts like karate and tae kwon do are effectively useless. Boxing too maybe. Has there ever been a real fight that didn't come down grappling and wrestling.

Even boxing matches have to have a referee just to keep them from wrestling.

My vote is Jui Jitsu. Royce Gracie style.

[Edge34]

I happen to hold a 2nd Degree Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do. In my experience, although I've never had to use it in a street fight, the actual techniques themselves wouldn't be as effective, but combined with self-defense training (which I also have), using grappling, pressure points, AND the strikes can work wonderfully well.

So in essence, you're right...street fighting isn't based on style, its based on kicking the other person's ass so you don't get yours kicked. Its all in how you use what you know.

-Edge

[astroglide]

[ QUOTE ]
My vote is Jui Jitsu. Royce Gracie style.

[/ QUOTE ]

...which will get you killed by their friends in a real-life situation if you used it alone.

[nicky g]

Yah but what won't? I agree deliberately taking it to the ground is pretty stupid but it's quite likely to happen regardless.

[The once and future king]

You are kidding?

A "Pro" wrestler wouldnt even lay a finger on tyson or lewis.

A feather weight boxer would take down a "pro" wrestler easy. He could evade all of his attacks and land blows on him at will.

Boxing is the best fighting skill to learn if you want to win fights in the real world. Remeber boxing is about getting in a ring and fighting. If you box for long enough you will get much better at absorbing the intiall shock of a direct hit (by a fist at least) this will give you a massive edge over opponents.

I have trained upto brown belt in Karrate, when I started boxing (age 24) I was put in a ring with a 13 year old who had been boxing since he was 6. He could hit me at will with amazing power due to technique(harder than I could hit him eventhough I weighed a lot more) and evade every blow I threw at him again due to technique.

[astroglide]

something that is more focused on striking than submission

[theBruiser500]

kung fu is great. it's very challenging physically (if you're looking to get in shape). i think it's elegant, it's extremely developed, it's been practiced for a long time by many people. as far as "practicing what they preach," well, kung fu people do too. you've probably seen on tv where martial arts people are breaking bricks on their heads and stuff - kung fu people really can do that.

http://www.shaolins.com/shaolin6.htm

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
Boxing is the best fighting skill to learn if you want to win fights in the real world. Remeber boxing is about getting in a ring and fighting. If you box for long enough you will get much better at absorbing the intiall shock of a direct hit (by a fist at least) this will give you a massive edge over opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that boxing is good training for real world fights, but it is not enough by itself. If you do not know how to kick, you are putting yourself at an extreme disadvantage. You can f*ck someone up a lot more and from farther range with a kick than a punch.

[Topflight]

[ QUOTE ]
something that is more focused on striking than submission

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't be serious. Maybe if you were guaranteed to knock your opponent out on the first hit. What happens when he just takes two blows, gets in close, and then breaks your knee and your elbow while choking you.

[theBruiser500]

"something that is more focused on striking than submission "

yeah, a kung fu strategy of redirecting your agression would kick ur ass

[astroglide]

yes, i can be serious. choking takes time. when i say "striking" i'm referring to both standing and ground. if i'm in a crowded area and might get jumped at any second by another person, i would much rather have positional advantage on the ground while striking than a dedicated, vulnerable posture for a submission move.

[Topflight]

How about a combination of Akido and Jui Jitsu.

Then when astro runs up and throws a silly punch at us, we can flip him on his back and then wrap our legs around his head till he passes out.

[astroglide]

read all the posts (like the first one i made) before you run off with stupid assumptions

[Topflight]

Ok, I'll admit that if it is me vs multiple people a submission/grappling style is not going to be the best choice.

[tolbiny]

A couple of years before i got to high school, we had a D-1 state champ at 130 lbs (weight class might be off). So he was normally around 150, really a pretty quiet guy, not physically imposing at all. The story has come down that while he was in college at a bar two cops started hasseling him, pushing him around and talking [censored] to him. I never heard why but some cops are just assholes sometimes. By the end of the story both cops are hospitilized and the hero of the story is left with barely a bruise. I personaly believe the story as i know the guys circulating it, but anyone who has seen a high school state champ at any weight class can easily see how it could be true at the very least.
The charges that were filled against him were droppend and both cops fired when someone who was videotapingmost of it came forward.

[Topflight]

However, I also don't believe that many grappling moves would take much time against untrained joes in a bar. You could probably do some damage very quickly before his friends jump you.

And where are your friends, why would you be in a fight with multiple people and no one to back you up.

[Blarg]

Yeah, going to the ground can be great if you're really competent, but the ground sometimes has broken glass on it, and if the guy's friends are around, you're pretty much dead once they start kicking you while you're pretzeled up with your opponent.

I did jiu-jitsu for a few years, and studied classical wing chun for a bit less than a year, and did wing chun do, which is a modification of classical wing chun style that Bruce Lee developed, interpreted a little by one of his first students back in Bruce's Seattle days, James Demile. It adds the backfist, a natural for Wing Chun, and fencing lunges and more footwork, and does sticking hands with a little more forward energy than classical wing chun does.

It was great training in the combination I did. I trained jiu-jitsu during much of the time I trained wing chun and wing chun do, and it was a very strange mix, which is one of the good things about it. The jiu-jitsu style enabled me to surprise the wing chun and wing chun do guys in sparring with the occasional lock or throw, as well as kick, and the incredible hand work in wing chun brought my hand skills up to a more realistic level where there was a much greater chance I would be able to block someone's punch to initiate a throw in the first place, as well as launch much more effective hand strikes of my own. One of my best friends had done a lot of training in thai kickboxing, so he brought a lot of that to the sparring mix our wing chun do classes.

Anyway, I got third level black belt in jiu jitsu and the chinese equivalent of black belt in wing chun do, though there aren't really belts in kung fu; that was more put in to keep the Americans happy, who quite frankly are often a bunch of lazy babies(myself included). I had a great time, got in unbelievable shape.

I saw some cool things, like the one-inch punch that Bruce Lee developed with James Demile and passed on down to Kimo Wong, who was my wing chun do teacher in Hawaii. Kimo, like Demile, did it much better, and differently, than you see Dan Inosanto or most others do it, with barely a move in his body. He was a little guy, about 135 pounds, but with a flick of his wrist even while his knuckles were already on your body(a sort of "no-inch" punch I guess), could send you literally flying backwards in the air for six feet or more. I had this done to me numerous times, because we always begged him for a demonstration. It took him years before he gave in and showed us, because he had gotten sued once for collapsing someone's lung doing it in a demonstration. Even though it was traumatic to your body and a little dangerous, we always begged him to do it again so we could watch. It was hilarious to see its effect on people, because it was bewildering both to experience and to see. Kimo's body movement was pretty much imperceptible; there was no wind-up or push-through or any noticeable preparation. He could talk casually before and after it; he wasn't tense or worked up at all. And then you just literally flew. You didn't stagger or skip back a few steps -- you went into the air and landed some distance away, still going backward at a terrific clip and either rolling or falling onto your back. It didn't seem to make sense. It was so unexpected that you often came up laughing. His control was very precise, and he placed a thick phone book on your chest so he could exert good force without hurting you. This was a guy who could pick which brick in a stack he was going to break, and leave the others intact.

What was really funny is the people who would have it happen to them who literally could not believe it. It completely blew their minds, and they wound up saying things like, oh, well, you took a big wind up that time, and such. There was one guy who always wanted to have it done, and always denied how it happened. The rest of us would just laugh, because we had all seen it, and been through the same total inability to believe it had really happened to us that the other guy went through every time.

It was great doing sticking hands in the wing chun classses, and gave you an incredible amount amount of control once contact was established. It's very hard to tangle with a wing chun man once you've established a "bridge" to each other's bodies and limbs. I never got to the stage of doing sticking legs, though, and though I could kick fairly well myself because of years of training before I came to wing chun and wing chun do, my overall ability to defend from long range developed more slowly than my hands, and by the time I left Hawaii, where I took jiu-jitsu and wing chun and wing chun do, my hands were far and away what I was best with.

I do recommend wing chun and its modifications very much, as it's a very scientific style, believing that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. It doesn't waste a lot of time on forms; even classical wing chun has only three. Attack and defense is simultaneous, not a one-two one-two thing as in most classical karate and kung fu, and blocks, parries, and strikes are designed to be as economical as possible given the limitations of the human body, not according to esoteric principles or patterning after real or imagined animals. Six months of training in wing chun is enough to give someone notable hand skill and practical fighting skill, whereas that length of time training in other arts is just basically a warm-up. I say that having studied other arts and getting a third degree black belt in one of them. Wing chun is just extremely economical and efficient, and easy to learn. It's not one of those "don't ask questions" styles , and it makes a lot of sense. Just like it's foolish to use your fist to punch someone's feet, you don't kick people in the head; movement is extremely linear and economical, and because of the use of balance and momentum, very little actual force is used. The system was designed by a woman, and fits their needs to use brains over brawn rather than be strong enough to overpower everyone with sheer brute force.

It's actually a "thinking" style as well as a practical one. Anyone who has done its sticking hands exercises, or the similar ones in some other styles like tai-chi, gets a chance to see how amazingly deep and profound the control of mind and energy can be. Things like that are fascinating enough for a lifetime of study.

[Topflight]

I've seen some wrestlers do "their stuff." It isn't the 30 minute rolling around on the ground kind of thing that you see in UFC. Just like a boxer doesn't take 13 rounds to take someone out in a bar, like it can in the ring.

A grappler could take out multiple opponents very quickly and very effectively.

Also, a striking type fighter could very well end up rolling around on the ground and kicked in the head by the dudes buddy, and he would not be on the ground by choice and probably already be getting his ass kicked.

[astroglide]

even if you're not dealing with a buddy if anybody sees you CHOKING somebody in a fight they're going to think you're killing them and try to do something. i would think an arm or leg bender would be more appropriate but i would also think you'd have to be well above student level to see and capitalize on an opportunity like that (and do it quickly). still grappling skills are simply awesome.

[raisins]

I've found Judo to be a lot of fun. It's a good work out, improves balance and teaches you how to fall safely. Unfortunately not many dojos put much emphasis on teaching ground work, which is a part of Judo as envisioned by Kano.

As far as "effective" goes, check out W.E. Fairbairn and what he taught the O.S.S. during WWII. It is available in his book _Get Tough_; it might be available online for free. A lot of emphasis on a few simple strikes. Doesn't look like it as much fun to practice or play with long term though.

Then again I'm not sure anything compares for "effectiveness" with a CCW and a person skilled in accessing it at the appropriate times.

regards,

raisins

[tolbiny]

It doesn't take more than a second or two to snap someones are if you know how.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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Boxing is the best fighting skill to learn if you want to win fights in the real world. Remeber boxing is about getting in a ring and fighting. If you box for long enough you will get much better at absorbing the intiall shock of a direct hit (by a fist at least) this will give you a massive edge over opponents.


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I agree that boxing is good training for real world fights, but it is not enough by itself. If you do not know how to kick, you are putting yourself at an extreme disadvantage. You can f*ck someone up a lot more and from farther range with a kick than a punch.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of boxers have gotten their asses kicked on the street. It's a great art, but you have to train yourself NOT to do all kinds of things that are actually very good to do, like stomping people's feet, slamming them onto the ground in a throw, kicking, etc. It's not that you can't do those things, but what you train at becomes a filter that it gets hard to defend or attack outside of, since your instincts are all so heavily channeled by experience and hard training. That's why many martial arts competitions have rules changes at the last minute -- the organizing body has its fighters practice by certain rules that are different than what the tournament rules are supposed to be, and then the tournament rules get changed to THEIR rules, leaving everyone but the home team feeling very unsure what to do and inhibited. It's a dirty old trick used from time immemorial -- it's very hard to do differently than what you're trained to do, especially in the heat of the moment, when so much is instinct.

Boxing is a fantastic sport, and the conditioning and regular taking of blows is one of the best parts of it. But though you can kill someone with it, it's still a sport, with all kinds of rules. The street has no rules, and it's not a boxer's arena at all. He may excel there, and he may not. In real life, even the champions have gone down hard sometimes on the street.

[theBruiser500]

awesome post blarg, very interesting.

"Attack and defense is simultaneous, not a one-two one-two thing as in most classical karate and kung fu, and blocks, parries, and strikes are designed to be as economical as possible given the limitations of the human body, not according to esoteric principles or patterning after real or imagined animals"

those don't hold true for the kung fu i learned.

[BeerMoney]

Karate died two years after Kartate Kid.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
And where are your friends, why would you be in a fight with multiple people and no one to back you up

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes your friends aren't around or are chickensh** cowards, and you don't know who every stranger's friends are or if or when they're going to jump in. (Of course, neither do any of your friends). Go in a strange place and you may think some jerk is alone and find out everyone there has known him for years and it's almost random who might jump in at any time and start helping kick your ass.

You really don't have any control over things on the street, and it's crazy to think you do. That's why it's so much more dangerous than any arena, ring, or sporting situation. You don't even know if the beating is going to stop when you're knocked out, or if you're going to get fish-hooked, maimed, or killed even when the fight is obviously over.

[Topflight]

Yeah

Luckily I don't live anywhere near those streets. I've never been trained in anything and am too small to have my size help me out. 5'11" 160. Which is surprisingly small when I go out to bars.

I think I can count the fights I've seen on one hand, and by your standards they weren't even fights.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
"Attack and defense is simultaneous, not a one-two one-two thing as in most classical karate and kung fu, and blocks, parries, and strikes are designed to be as economical as possible given the limitations of the human body, not according to esoteric principles or patterning after real or imagined animals"

those don't hold true for the kung fu i learned

[/ QUOTE ]

In wing chun, the principle is called "lin sil die dar," which means simultaneous attack and defense.

Notice that in karate and most classical kung fu, you are taught to block, then punch, often with one hand held a t the waist while the other punches or blocks, then the next hand goes out and the other is withdrawn to the hip or cocked back and out of the way. This separates attacking and defending into two stages, as well as making one of your hands basically non-operational. It's actually a very natural sort of rhythmic moving and not all that easy to get out of once you've trained in it, since it conditions your mind to move in an established pattern.

Simultaneous attack and defense happens at the crudest level when you simply punch or kick in unison with your block. Wing chun is very confusing to learn for a little while because both hands have to be coordinated, as they're both used equally at once to block and strike at the same time.

It's often ideal to refine the process further. For instance, when you sense or see a punch coming, you can punch right over someone's arm, blocking it as you punch, thereby blocking and attacking at the same time, and using only one arm. Better refinement of your ability to read people can result in not needing to block or parry at all, as you simply, say, slip a punch by tilting your body and head a little out of the way and at the same time land a hook to the gut or jaw. Boxers do this a lot.

These are gross examples of what you want to do eventually, which is work your way from the most clumsy, muscle-bound, and inefficient ways of defense and offense to the fastest, most direct way of combining both and using the least energy and predictability to do it.

What you want to do is refine your ability to read someone's energy and bodily "tells" well enough that you can instinctually understand what he's about to do, or see that his rhythm and concentration are off, leaving him vulnerable for a split-second, "off-beat" as it were. Then, if your skills are up to it, you take him unaware with a strike of your own before he's even launched his attack. To an outsider it would look like you simply attacked and were faster, but actually there is a process of awareness involved, however instinctual it may be, and it's not at that level about just bulling through and hoping you're fast enough. With the right timing and awareness, a slower man can land on a faster man and have much less trouble avoiding his blows than would seem likely.

[lowroller]

I think kick-boxing (muay-thai, not tae-bo) is better than traditional boxing for real self-defense...not to mention a tremendous workout.

IMO, there is no ONE style that is more suited for street fighting. You have to be a well-rounded fighter, versed in several forms of fighting. Sounds cliche, but it's true. You've got to be able to fight from long/medium/close-quarters (standing), specifically from the clinch, and the ground.

If you put the proverbial gun to my head, I would have to say grappling/jiu-jitsu because soooo many street fights start with the clinch and end up on the ground (Astro, choking only takes a couple of seconds. However, if you're really going at it, it may be tough to apply the choke correctly and could take longer).

The biggest thing that I don't see mentioned here is CONDITIONING. I feel like it is the best defensive AND offensive weapon in your arsenal. I've seen so many fights end because of guys getting "gassed". All of that punching/kicking/rolling around on the ground takes alot out of you (whether you're defending or attacking), and the last thing you want to do is be on "empty" when your opponent isn't...that's when it gets ugly.

[CCass]

I never made it to Black Belt when I was studying TKD, congrats for such a great accomplishment.

When I was studying TKD, our teacher incorporated judo throws and other grappling techniques into our training. As far as training us for "street fighting", he had two rules. 1 - Don't ever get into a fight. 2 - If you do get into a fight, remember that there is no such thing as a fair fight. If a stick is laying close by, use it. Do whatever is necessary to end the fight ASAP. He was very serious about rule #1, he made 1 student train for his Black Belt test for an additional 6 months because he got into a fight at school.

[YourFoxyGrandma]

[ QUOTE ]
A pro-wrestler like the Undertaker can probably take down and then beat down a boxer like Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis. He would be too big for these guys. Even though they are fake, the pro-wrestlers are in great shape. Just check out the physiques of Triple H and Chris Benoit. Plus, these guys probably know how to fight for real (Tazz, for example, is a black belt in judo and Kurt Angle is an Olympic gold medalist, Booker T was a pro-boxer).

Pro-wrestling wins. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I once had a friend that was an amateur boxer. He offered to fight anyone (gloves, of course) with one hand behind his back. One of my tougher British friends took him up on it. He got the [censored] kicked out of him, like, real bad, which I found awesome.

I realize that this isn't really relevant in any way, but then again, what does the word "relevant" even mean?

[Bubbagump]

This argument and the attitudes/egos that usually come with it are one of the reasons I don't practice Martial arts anymore.

My personal take on the whole thing is no one style is superior to another. The skill of the fighter will determine who the winner is in any fight, period.

It is probably the best form of exercise there is though.

Bubbagump

[Topflight]

So when is no holds barred fighting to the death going to become legal.

I think I'm sick enough to watch that.

[slickpoppa]

Speaking of fighting, check out this bare knuckle fight. The guy that wins is a frickin beast. Also, check out the loser's face at the end.

fight (http://www.muchosucko.com/video-soundbeating.html)

[thirddan]

A standard TaeKwonDo competition fighter will get their ass kicked in just about any fight with some with someone with any training or that isn't a complete douche...i sparred with a wing chun guy once while i studied and after taking him down he tried doing one of those no hand getup things and i almost broke his jaw, he wasnt so good, that is my only experience with wing chun so i don't hold them in too high of regard...

[BadBoyBenny]

Since we're doing this over the Internet...

I challenge you and your weak one inch punch instructor to a fight to the death.

[Diplomat]

Screw all this. Carry a can of mace and a ball-peen hammer.

-Diplomat

[Topflight]

That will just get you hurt worse.

[MMMMMM]

Grappling/throws/trips combined with opportune striking is what it's all about.

Striking with your elbows and knees when in grappling range is very effective, and most martial arts do not emphasize this enough.

Work at improving your balance; if you don't go down and your opponent does you are in way better position. Balance is so key.

Don't put much stock in blocking; it is much better to slip a punch or be moving so that it glances off you. Light parries are fine if you are combining them with something else simultaneously. Often you can parry while closing or counterstriking.

Boxing hand techniques > than most other martial art hand techniques. In particular the fancy choreographed blocks are horrible IMO.

Fight fluidly like a dog not like a robot.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
...i sparred with a wing chun guy once while i studied and after taking him down he tried doing one of those no hand getup things and i almost broke his jaw, he wasnt so good, that is my only experience with wing chun so i don't hold them in too high of regard...


[/ QUOTE ]

That's not actually a wing chun move. Sounds like you were sparring with a goof; not fair to speak of a "them" when you only sparred with one mediocre goofball doing show-off stunts.

[nicky g]

"you've probably seen on tv where martial arts people are breaking bricks on their heads and stuff - kung fu people really can do that."

Yeah but that doesn't have much to do with really fighting. "Kung Fu" is really to broad a collection of styles too make generalisations about, but nevertheless, a lot of Kung Fu schools seem to practice estoteric techniques and forms that noone would use in a real fight, and don't do much proper sparring, which is vital. Others of course do. They also don;t seem to incoropate much ground work.

[nicky g]

"IMO, there is no ONE style that is more suited for street fighting. You have to be a well-rounded fighter, versed in several forms of fighting. Sounds cliche, but it's true. You've got to be able to fight from long/medium/close-quarters (standing), specifically from the clinch, and the ground."

For sure.

[nicky g]

"This argument and the attitudes/egos that usually come with it are one of the reasons I don't practice Martial arts anymore."

I'd call this more of an argument than a discussion.


"My personal take on the whole thing is no one style is superior to another. The skill of the fighter will determine who the winner is in any fight, period."

Yah but their skill depends a lot on what they've been taught and how they've trained. I agree that no one style is the best, but there are some that put an emphasis on techniques and train in ways that would get their arses kicked in a real fight - eg styles which don't emphasise a high guard, put an emphasis on high kicks, concentrate largely on forms etc. Those things are just silly in self-defence terms.

[nicky g]

Good advice. Do you train in anything?

[nicky g]

Wing Chun gets a lot of crap on MA forums. Any idea why? I don't know very much about it. Some of the principles you describe are similar to things we do eg simultaneous block and strike/defence and attack. We also use a lot of boxing/kickboxing style dodges/slips.

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
Wing Chun gets a lot of crap on MA forums. Any idea why? I don't know very much about it. Some of the principles you describe are similar to things we do eg simultaneous block and strike/defence and attack. We also use a lot of boxing/kickboxing style dodges/slips.

[/ QUOTE ]

The perception of Wing Chun is that it looks flimsy, weak,a nd ineffective. It is all but the afformentioned.

Blarg is right on the money with Wing Chun. It is a very effective, no nonsense form of martial art that heavily deals with using an opponents style, weight, and combativeness against themself. Hence the simultaneous offensiveness/defensivenss.

The movements of Wing Chun are quick, swift, and precise. One does not need a lot of strength, or size to use to effectively. Remember were are merely using ourselves as a form of an object to have the opponents fight against themselves.

Having taken a few years of Wing Chun myself, I would have to say that countering a strong boxing style technique is most difficult. Other martial arts focus more heavily on implying closer range combat, but boxing incurs a rather more swift hit and run technique.

After learning more about street fighting and watching some UFC events, I learned an even greater deal about self defense. Hand to hand combat while standing upright is only a small part of martial arts. In university I took up a year of Wu-Shu. Wu-Shu focuses heavily on ground combat where an opponent has knocked me down and I am forced to fight to fight on the ground.

I have never taken karate, or kung fu, or judo, or boxing. In the heat of the moment, when someone is physically threatenig my life and someone else's life, I need to be able to defend and quite possibly take them down. That's all I care about. None of the above mentioned help me do that effectively and quickly. But Wing Chun, Wu-shu, and a lot of street fighting techniques (learnt through UFC videos, magazines, and some practice) can help me.

If I want to stay in shape, I just work out at the gym or play ice hockey.

Lawrence

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
"you've probably seen on tv where martial arts people are breaking bricks on their heads and stuff - kung fu people really can do that."

Yeah but that doesn't have much to do with really fighting. "Kung Fu" is really to broad a collection of styles too make generalisations about, but nevertheless, a lot of Kung Fu schools seem to practice estoteric techniques and forms that noone would use in a real fight, and don't do much proper sparring, which is vital. Others of course do. They also don;t seem to incoropate much ground work.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've only taken kung fu for a year or two so I don't know much about this compared to you guys, but it seems to me that if these kung fu people can break bricks on their heads it would be very hard to hurt them in a fight.

[nicky g]

You have more martial ats experience than I do. But I would think that being able to break a brick on a part of your head in controlled conditions, while very impressive, doesn't mean your nose won't break if punched hard, that you won't collapse if kicked in the nuts, etc. It's impressive, but it's not fighting. Winning a fight shows you're good at fighting, not breaking inanimate objects.

[vulturesrow]

I took TKD for a long time and think it is a pretty viable for self defense if you go to a school that doesnt emphasize tournament fighting. My school did not, although if you wanted to go to a tournament our instructor would help you prepare for it. Interestingly enough, our students did very well at tournaments, even though tournament fighting had 0 priority in our school. Our instructor did however compete every year in a statewide full contact open style tournament. I know he won it a few times too.

Another tangential point that this thread made me think about. I hate the idiots that say size doenst matter in a fight. Dumbasses.

[nicky g]

I really don;t know that much about TaeKwonDo so take any comments I make about it with a pinch of salt. My wife did it for a while and really liked it. The criticisms that are usually levelled at it are:

It has a strong emphasis on training for tournaments the rules of which lead to very unrealistic fights and is more of a sport than an MA. Your school didn't emphasise that so I guess that's far from universal.

It doesn't put enough emphasis on hand/arm strikes/punches, and when it does it teaches poor technique.

It puts a lot of emphasis on kicks that would be impractical in a real fight (eg high kicks that would put you off balance, leave you extremely vulnerable if they miss, are slower than a other strikes, leave your leg open to being grabbed etc)

That it uses unrealistic stiff blocks and doesn't put enough emphasis on dodging/footwork/mobility.

It places too much emphasis on learning forms and not enough on free sparring (ie without TKD tournament rules)

I have never attended a TKD lesson so this could all be untrue as far as I know.

Any thoughts?

[vulturesrow]

Well I attended only one school while I practicing TKD. I do know a lot of schools do emphasize the tournament aspect, so you have to be careful when you shop. As far as some of the stylistic differences, I would agree that the lack of emphasis on hand strikes is probably the weakest point of TKD. However they do teach hand strikes so again it depends on the quality of the instruction. The high kick thing is a nonissue. If you attempt one of these in a real fight, you deserve to get your ass kicked. I disagree with the statement about footwork. This was very heavily emphasized in my school. Dodging wasnt talked about so much, it was sort of understood. We free sparred a lot so I felt very comfortable.

Bottom line is that if you are thinking of taking a martial art, take the time to go observe some classes, talk to the instructor, etc. Quality of instruction is probably the biggest factor in the whole deal. A good instructor will not mind you doing these things when you are looking for a school.

[nicky g]

"If you attempt one of these in a real fight, you deserve to get your ass kicked."

But aren't they the trademark of TKD?


"Bottom line is that if you are thinking of taking a martial art, take the time to go observe some classes, talk to the instructor, etc. Quality of instruction is probably the biggest factor in the whole deal. "

Agreed, the instructor and the training methods are what matters.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
"If you attempt one of these in a real fight, you deserve to get your ass kicked."

But aren't they the trademark of TKD?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldnt say high kicks are. Yes kicks are the foundation of TKD. But you dont train to kick high. The highest I was ever told to kick was the solar plexus. I did kick a guy in the head one time while sparring. But that is it. The high kicking is more for when you are doing forms.

[nicky g]

Cool, thank for the info.

[Topflight]

Someone set me straight on this black belt as a deadly weapon thing. Once every few years I hear some crap about how some dude isn't allowed to hit anyone because he is a deadly weapon or some crap.

Is there any, or was there ever any truth to this?

[astroglide]

would make a good submission for snopes. i've always heard it to be an urban legend.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
Wing Chun gets a lot of crap on MA forums. Any idea why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Martial artists always crap on each other. It's sort of a dumb-ass tradition. A shame.

Wing chun gets a lot of crap because it's so popular. Since people knew it was Bruce Lee's original style, it became the thing to hate. Also, Lee put down a lot of other people in his time, so some of that came right back to Wing Chun, even though he had long since ceased to be a pure wing chun man by the time he got real fame. People in the martial arts community are like people in Bosnia -- memories never die, and resentments and prejudice are passed on like they were heirlooms.

Also, Wing Chun is extremely good at what it does, but what it does is very hands-oriented. Of course that makes people from less hands-oriented styles often want to put it down. If you're in a complex, flowery style, or like lots of high kicking, Wing Chun is going to be the antithesis of what you're putting a lot of heart and soul and tremendous time and physical effort into, and there's no way a style with a totally different emphasis is going to sit well once you've made a commitment to something so different. Unless you're either mature enough or educated enough to understand that all styles have both weaknesses and strengths, and a complete fighter is unlikely to come out of any single style.

But the martial arts world is full of pride and prejudice. In traditions we're still not far removed from in much of the world, studying more than one martial art was a great insult to your teacher, a social calamity, and could even provoke serious challenges between teachers and students. The last thing it's traditional to expect between martial artists is either understanding or respect, except between masters, where it's much more common. Students tend to be jerks, just like a lot of teacher's aides in college. They're on the way there, but without the power or authority yet, just often a resentment and a desire to mis-apply both to whoever gets within their circle of control.

On kickboxing -- I like Thai boxing a lot myself. My friend used to kick down banana trees in his huge yard with his shins. Even with a tough inner-tube shield held against your arm, you were lucky not to get a broken neck when he kicked. It's amazing the power they can get -- not to mention how the heck they ever get that not to hurt like hell on their shins. I have a lot of respect for Thai boxing, and for regular boxing too.

The slip is one of my favorite moves, and with good enough footwork, it's almost impossible to hit someone or make a hit land solidly.

Which puts me in mind of what's wrong with so many of the outlooks of people critizing other people's styles. I love Thai boxing for closing the gap and giving a wide range of powerful weapons, but in a place like the boats of Hong Kong, where a whole city lives on the shifting surface of the water, in crowded quarters, a style with a lot of wide stances, high kicking, and depending a lot on very mobile footwork just wouldn't work well, and would be dangerous to the practitioner. A lot of Southern Chinese styles developed narrower footwork and concentrated on hands because of things like that. It's similar to what you might find in a crowded bar. There are slippery floors and crowded quarters, and hands are a natural there. Outdoors, things change. It's like I think Dan Inosanto said - a grenade is a great weapon, but I wouldn't want to use one in a phone booth. It's definitely silly for people to always espouse their one style above all others for all situations, especially if it's one that's highly specialized, like tae kwon do is in the legs, or boxing or wing chun are in the hands, or wrestling and judo and some forms of jiu-jitsu and chin-na are in everything but the legs and hands. It shows you how dopey and locked in on their own thing to the exclusion of common sense people can be.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
This was a guy who could pick which brick in a stack he was going to break, and leave the others intact.

[/ QUOTE ]

Victor : What's the hold-up?
Official : He says Senzo Tanaka is his shidoshi.
Victor : What's the difference if Bruce Springsteen is his shidoshi?
Official : If Senzo Tanaks is his shidoshi, then show us the Dim Mak.
Ray Jackson : [turns to Frank] What the hell is a Dim Mack?
Official : Death touch.

http://www.jiggscasey.com/images/movies/bloodsport.jpg

[theBruiser500]

Nicky G, why you asking so much about martial arts? You thinking of practicing one yoursel?

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]

Martial artists always crap on each other. It's sort of a dumb-ass tradition. A shame.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

--turnipmonster

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
Someone set me straight on this black belt as a deadly weapon thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that this is not the case in any official way. However, I also have read that if you get in a fight, no matter who caused it, if you're known to be a martial artist, the courts take it very badly and are extremely judgmental about it. Judges and lawyers usually don't know a thing about self-defense and how hard and scary a fight is, but know all about imposing unrealistic standards on people that look good on a printed page and sound wounderful to talk about. I've read of cases where judges have come down extremely hard on martial artists involved in fights because it is assumed they will have some sort of amazing ability to get out of any situation and not hurt anybody in the process. Legally, it can be very dangerous to be considered a martial artist if a fight breaks out.

That's another reason for not using a "kiai" yell or fancy techniques if you're in a fight. By the time it gets to the judge, you'll have a lot of explaining to do for being human and making mistakes. You will likely be held to an entirely different, and entirely unreasonable, standard.

[nicky g]

I am practicing one (see my first post). I just thought it might be an interesting subject for a thread.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
You have more martial ats experience than I do. But I would think that being able to break a brick on a part of your head in controlled conditions, while very impressive, doesn't mean your nose won't break if punched hard, that you won't collapse if kicked in the nuts, etc. It's impressive, but it's not fighting. Winning a fight shows you're good at fighting, not breaking inanimate objects.

[/ QUOTE ]


is martial arts really about winning a fight? no.

[nicky g]

Fair enough. What's it about then?

[daryn]

it's supposed to be about discipline, physical conditioning, mastering oneself, etc.

[nicky g]

If you say so. I think some people take it up for those reasons, and some to learn how to fight. I do it for fun. But in the standard "which martial art is best", I think people generally mean which one teaches you how to fight best.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
If you say so. I think some people take it up for those reasons, and some to learn how to fight. I do it for fun. But in the standard "which martial art is best", I think people generally mean which one teaches you how to fight best.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm just saying i think that's the general idea behind a martial art. fighting is just about the dumbest thing you can do these days. fighting is basically foi high school and earlier only. in the days of lawsuits, you break a guy's nose and you end up having to put his kid through college. also you start the wrong fight and you get stabbed/shot.

[nicky g]

Very good points but most of the fighters would say they do it in case anyone starts on them, not to pick fights, although some are probably not telling the truth.

[daryn]

i guess i just use an "avoid fighting at all costs" strategy. luckily i have never even been in a situation where a punch has been thrown. i am not a small guy anyway so i was never really picked on.

in general though i think people don't think enough about the situation and they just want to jump into a fight, and that's just stupid. even if another guy starts with you, fighting is probably a bad idea. there are some very tough guys and also some very insane guys with weapons that will just go out and TRY to start fights with guys, just to F them up. these days everyone wants to jump into a fight if someone steps on their shoes.

fights = dumb

[MMMMMM]

Not at present, but I have done wrestling, judo, jiu-jitsu, and a little boxing. Won a 3rd place in New England in sport judo in my teens. Sport Judo is way more fun than the others in my opinion.

I also think freestyle competition is generally more important and beneficial than are most drills (except for falling drills which are absolutely critical. You MUST be able to take a fall, recover quickly and continue fighting, even if you land on the asphalt). I feel that a 2 1/2-hour practice session should consist of about 50% of the time spent in freestyle competition, with the rest of the time spent on warm-up, falling practice, learning new techniques, and drills.

[Blarg]

Jiu-jitsu was my first style I got serious about, and I'm totally with you on the falling thing. I think they should teach falling in P.E. classes in every school, mandatory. Learning how to fall down safely is one of the mandatory skills in life, almost like learning to walk and use a toilet.

People get hurt in falls all their lives, and are always in danger of it. Just falling down winds up indirectly killing old people all the time, as their bones break easily and all their wounds are very slow to heal. They wind up dying of infections when injured, because their immune systems are so weak. And the hospitals they have to go visit are so full of infections in the first place.

Falling down when you're old often means your life is over. It's such a pointless tragedy and so avoidable. I think it's nuts that we aren't taught from the time we're children how to avoid getting hurt too much when falling.

[Topflight]

Blarg, I love your posts.

Can you tell us what styles you have studied and what belts you have earned.

[Blarg]

Thanks Topflight.

I did a little karate when I was a really young kid, but first got serious when I took up Okazaki Kodenkan Jiu-Jitsu. This is the style Henry Okazaki was teaching in Hawaii, which Wally Jay later modified and started describing as "small-circle jiu-jitsu." I've never seen Jay's style personally or any of his students. I got a third degree black belt in that style, and was an assistant instructor.

I studied Wing Chun concurrently for less than a year while doing that, and then found out about Wing Chun Do, which I also took concurrently with Jiu-Jitsu for a while, until I eventually stopped taking Jiu-Jitsu.

My assistant instructor in classicial Wing Chun found out I was doing Wing Chun Do at the same time, and being a traditionalist, insisted I choose either Wing Chun or Wing Chun Do. I chose the latter. Very silly, because Robert Yeung, my Wing Chun teacher, was actually fine with Kimo Wong, my Wing Chun Do teacher. It was just the assistant instructor throwing around his weight and being a jerk creating drama. Then again what could I know? Yeung maintained a forbidding distance from his students. I moved up a level or two with Yeung, if I recall. Minor levels, nothing big.

Anyway, in Wing Chun Do, I got to second level, but never got around to taking my third level tests, though my teacher encouraged me to. If I recall, second level was somewhere around the equivalent of a first degree blackbelt in a Japanese style, but Chinese styles are different, and this was a modified Chinese style, so the ranking was different still. There were only a handful of levels in the whole system. I was never one for ranks. I was an assistant instructor in both the childrens and adults classes.

My first serious teacher, or rather the first teacher of an art I was willing to really give my all to, was George Sherman of Okazaki Kodenkan jiu-jitsu, a really strong, muscular guy who had trained in numerous arts himself. I think he was a 7th dan when I knew him. He found himself in the bewildering position of practically having to stuff belts down my throat to get me to pay attention to them. I just wanted to learn the arts inside out, and always felt it was weird that I could get any belt at all, or care, really. They felt corny and ceremonial to me, like they had nothing to do with fighting or my competence. I figured if I ever got to master anything, it would be apparent all by itself, and that's all I cared about. But I found out that it was actually a great insult to appear indifferent about belts when a traditional teacher broaches the subject of promoting you. It's kind of like questioning their judgment, which you're not really in a position to do because of your own limited understanding and judgment of where you stand, not to mention it's kind of insulting to question or be indifferent to a teacher's judgment. I made him really mad the first two black belts I got. When he asked me if I was ready for them, the first one I said something like, "I don't know," and the second one, something like, "I guess so." I should have know better by then, but I didn't know he was serious when he asked. The third one I accepted with a little more graciousness for tradition and for all the hard work he had put into teaching me.

It was kind of funny in retrospect. No one in my family ever knew when I got promoted. My jiu-jitsu instructor had dinner at my house many times and eventually became a friend of the family, and was always surprised that I never told anybody about any ranks I attained. I think that probably impressed him on certain levels, though, as he actually trained me free, for years, and taught me things that were actually a bit beyond the levels of my training, based just on his strong faith in my character and understanding of who I was as a person. During the summers, he trained me often 5 times a week and even more, for hours at a clip. He was very traditional, and didn't care to take on many students, and kicked out people quickly who didn't live up to his standards. Most just quit, because he was so crazy strict and worked us so hard. He had no regular school, and didn't believe in charging money to teach, so if people stayled or left, it was all fine by him. Anyway, we eventually parted ways, as happens in life, but he was a good and extremely selfless teacher for the years we knew each other.

It's been years since I've actually practised now. The old me would kick the crap out of the present me with one hand tied behind his back.

[ChicagoTroy]

Depends, depends, depends. One the trainee, on the level of instruction. Most kung fu instructors are crap, but a real xing-i or bauguazang expert can cripple somebody with one blow. Martial arts S&amp;C coaching is a hobby of mine and you see all kinds of types. The general rule is the harder the style &amp; training the more likely the people who can't fight will be weeded out. Not a lot of pussies in inner city boxing gyms compared to suburban aikido schools

brazillian jiujitsu is great, but if you are a sport competitor and take somebody to the ground in a bar, you better hope he doesn't have friends.

I started on karate at 10 and think it's terrific, but know plenty of black belt puss's who can't defend themselves.

Anything sport oriented is usually not terribly applicable in a real fight. Anybody who says Olympic TKD is for self defense is a fool.

[Blarg]

I've seen just a little bagua demonstrated but it seemed extremely interesting. Bagua walking looks like great exercise and is very hard to try to do right. It's amazing to see how differntly you can generate force and channel energy; bagua doing it horizontally instead of vertically or in a spiral, like other arts, seems unique outside of a limited few throws in some styles. But as a concept for an entire system, it's amazing, and I'd love to pursue it someday.

[nicky g]

I've heard good things about ba gua. There's a class really near my house, I should check it out.

[nicky g]

"fights = dumb"

Yes.

[Senor Choppy]

[ QUOTE ]
Someone set me straight on this black belt as a deadly weapon thing. Once every few years I hear some crap about how some dude isn't allowed to hit anyone because he is a deadly weapon or some crap.

Is there any, or was there ever any truth to this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea regarding the truth of this, but I got mine before I turned 16 and my aunt earned hers as well. The two of us weren't exactly an elite fighting duo.

[MMMMMM]

Excellent, informative and interesting post, Blarg.

By the way, do you know anyone personally who has learned Jeet Kune Do? Their take on it, maybe?

[nicky g]

It really depends on the art and the school. Some places you can get them relatively easily after a set amount of training. Other places are much harder. In my old Jujitsu style, you had to have trained for a minimum of five years, ran your own club for two (Brown belts could run a club) and do all kinds of completely crazy stuff like defend against live sword attacks (in fact, you had to do that for brown belt). The stories coming out of the blackblet gradings involved broken arms, people losing large amounts of blood, and so on. (Those people failed, by the way. If you got hurt you were always blamed. When we started out we were told if an attacker ever hit you, you had to buy them a drink).
They were psychos, which is one reason I left. But anyway, the point being that "black belt" is not a useful cross-system comparison as it denotes a different amount of skill and experience for every system.

[astroglide]

you have a black belt? in what?

[Senor Choppy]

Tae Kwon Do

[astroglide]

kee cho yil bu
kee cho yee bu
kee cho san bu

[Blarg]

No, I don't know anybody who has studied Jeet Kune Do.

I did see Dan Inosanto and Chris Kent give a demonstration in Hawaii a long time ago. It was pretty cool; Dan also demonstrated butterfly knives, and he was blur-fast with them. He had lots of training before he even got to Bruce, and is one hell of an athlete. Super-coordinated.

Here's a URL to a web site that Bruce's early students respond to questions on sometimes, including Skip Ellsworth, James Demile, my teacher's teacher, and Jesse Glover. Jesse has written some great books on Bruce's teaching, and was his first assistant instructor, long before the JKD days. One of them in particular I'm dying to get again, as it was stolen by someone(I don't blame them). That one was called "Bruce Lee: Between Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do. He has also trained with Bruce's Wing Chun mentor, now deceased. His name was Wong Shung Leung(Augustus Wong), as I recall, and he eventually wound up teaching in Australia, as did a number of Bruce's seniors. I forget his full Chinese name. A number of prominent JKD teachers post there too. Anywhere, here's the URL. http://www.forumco.com/pauljbax/

Hawkins Cheung was a friend and fellow student of Bruce Lee's under Yip Man back in his Hong Kong, and is very articulate and insightful. Here's a link to a part of his web site with some articles that were published on him in Inside Kung Fu. He comments quite a bit about JKD and Bruce in some of them, and his insights are interesting enough that people from any martial art style would probably find them a pretty good read. http://www.hawkinscheung.com/html/hcarticle.htm

And here's an interview with James Demile, my teacher's teacher and one of Bruce's first students:

http://www.forumco.com/pauljbax/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3613&amp;SearchTerms=demile

And here's a link to the person probably most responsible for Bruce Lee's development, Wong Shun Leung. He was a famous champion of many vicious Hong Kong challenge street fights, some including weapons and multiple opponents, yet was a tiny man. His exploits were followed closely and reported in the Hong Kong daily papers, and he was the man most credited with spreading the fame of Yip Man's classical Wing Chun. Bruce Lee idolized his skills and proven fighting experience, and he stood behind Bruce in Bruce's own challenge streetfights against other schools when Bruce was a teenager.

http://www.wingchun.com/WSLMemories.shtml

[Duke]

sam bu. They're counting in Korean.

And then there are the Pyung Ahn hyung, and then there was Bassai. I forget the name of the next set. It's been 15 years since I studied.

~D

[astroglide]

i remember the next set having "tai go gil chon" (i believe it was the third).

[mosta]

As far as grappling goes, and all that UFC kind of stuff, the most impressive martial arts information I've ever seen was a military hand-to-hand combat book with a chapter filled just with ways to tear off a lip, an ear, a nose or poke out an eye, etc. The pencil drawings made me queasy. There was one that involved I think index finger up nostril, thumb down the throat, and one or two fingers in the eye socket.

Not that I've ever been in a fight (since 6th grade, always with my best friend), but guys who stand around and throw punches at each other in a bar fight, would really rather be making out with each other except that they're embarrassed and succumb to peer pressure. If you've really got to be in a fight, it should get very ugly. And kicks to the head are really funny. I remember in a ML baseball game, a Korean guy got tangled up with the 2nd baseman. They froze and stared down a split second. Then out of nowhere the Korean guy came out with a lightning fast round house kick to the head. Which looked really cool until it met the big dopey looking white guys left forearm, after whcih the Korean guy was flat on his back, sat on, waiting to get his face caved in.

[Senor Choppy]

I remember learning bits of Korean for the oral portition of the test for black belt, but all the forms we did were called by their english names, (I can only remember the name of one called Heaven &amp; Earth). Although, the one we learned for the 2nd degree test was referred to only by its Korean name, which of course, escapes me.