Is this a strange rule?

[Moyer]

I called another player's bet on the river, he showed me the winning hand, so I mucked. He then asked the dealer to see my cards and the dealer picked them up off the pile and showed the whole table. Maybe I've been playing online too much, but this rule seems like complete BS. I later asked the floorman and he actually said it was alright.

Is this rule out of the ordinary? It would be different if I made the river bet, but I didn't.

[private joker]

This sounds ridiculous. What horse$h!t casino was this?

[Evan]

did your hand ever actually touch the muck?

[NicktheManiac]

This is the rule at the Hard Rock Seminole casinos in Florida, I know that for sure. If you call down to the river, someone can request to see your cards.

[FatMan]

The floor was right, but the rule is there to prevent collusion. I would have asked the floor to explain the rule and why it is there. Next time someone asked to see my hand I would ask them who they think I am colluding with before the dealer shows my hand.

[whiskeytown]

In theory, they have the right to see your hand on the river as part of the showdown....

it's USUALLY declared by an observer, not the other player, (since he obviously would know he's not colluding with you) - so in that part, it's pretty stupid.

and this is enforced online in the sense that if you have a showdown and pull up the hand history, you will get to see what the opponent's hand was in the text (at least for Party/Pokerstars)

but then you get into the whole "cards touched the muck" thing, and I would think that kills it....but who knows...

hope you took him for all his chips later.

RB

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
I called another player's bet on the river, he showed me the winning hand, so I mucked. He then asked the dealer to see my cards and the dealer picked them up off the pile and showed the whole table. Maybe I've been playing online too much, but this rule seems like complete BS. I later asked the floorman and he actually said it was alright.

Is this rule out of the ordinary? It would be different if I made the river bet, but I didn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing unusual about that rule. Do a search on "I want to see that hand" and you'll find plenty of references. You can find an article by Tommy Angelo on the topic here:

Tommy Article (http://www.tommyangelo.com/articles/i_want_to_see_that_hand.htm)

It's rude to use it just to gain information, however.

Regards,

T

[Lurshy]

Interesting essay, thanks for posting link.

How many of you abuse this online, by occasionally requesting hand histories to gain information? I know I do.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

In almost every live cardroom I have ever been in, any player can ask to see any called hand. The dealer must touch it to the muck and "kill it" before they can turn a discarded hand face up tho.

al

[Moyer]

Yes they touched the muck.

[Moyer]

It seems like a weird way of preventing collusion. Say I had absolutely nothing, what does that prove?(I actually had a straight draw and caught a medium pair on the river)

I had won a few large pots prior to this hand but I wasn't called on the river, so apparently a few players wanted to know if I actually had good hands or if I was betting junk. Seeing my mucked hand wouldn't make any difference, but I guess that's the kind of logic that bad players like to use. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Big Country]

[ QUOTE ]
In almost every live cardroom I have ever been in, any player can ask to see any called hand. The dealer must touch it to the muck and "kill it" before they can turn a discarded hand face up tho.

al

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought that if the hand had not touched the muck yet, then if an observer asks to see it the hand is killed, but if the other player on the river asks to see it, the hand is still live and if the hand is turned over and shown to be a winner, than the pot is awarded to that hand.

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like a weird way of preventing collusion. Say I had absolutely nothing, what does that prove?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a perfectly good way of preventing collusion, though there is very little collusion in card rooms these days. At least at the levels most of us are playing.

Say you and a friend are sitting at the table. You have an agreement about how to squeeze an opponent between you when one of you has a hand.

Only one of you has to have a hand and the poor guy between you and your buddy will find himself getting tied on for more and more bets since he can't close the betting.

At the end of the hand, you muck your junk before the showdown. The sandwichee or another player could ask to see the hands and expose the collusion when your junk hand is shown.

That's one reason the rule exists - there may be others. Mostly it's just abused by jerks.

Regards,

T

[TomCollins]

This is exactly why its a stupid rule. All you need to do is fold the river and no one can see your hand.

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
This is exactly why its a stupid rule. All you need to do is fold the river and no one can see your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I believe you can ask to see it, and it will be held aside and shown after the hand ends.

Regards,

T

[Trainwreck]

Normally allowed, but not often used rule... considered rude for some reason.

When out of the hand, I like it when some rude sob asks to see them, for the tilt value and seeing what trashy hands they play.

>TW<

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought that if the hand had not touched the muck yet, then if an observer asks to see it the hand is killed, but if the other player on the river asks to see it, the hand is still live and if the hand is turned over and shown to be a winner, than the pot is awarded to that hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. Gotta kill it first, then show it. Only a player can turn over a live hand, the dealer can't. This is pretty standard policy nowadays, at least here in vegas, and at all cardrooms I have personally played in (which is many). If the PLAYER turns it over before it hits the muck, it is of course still very live tho.

al

[TomCollins]

If you muck to a bet on the river, no one can see.

[bernie]

Yep. In my room if the winner of the hand calls to see it, and it beats his, the pot goes to the other guy.

Though slavic thinks it's still a dead hand, i'd have to check and see if they've changed it.

Getting uppity about this rule is a waste of energy. There are better things to worry about on the table.

b

[whiskeytown]

but it's the winner of the hand who asked to see the losing hand.

did he think he was colluding with himself? - a 3rd party, I can totally understand...but the winner of the heads up match? - the reasons for the rule go totally out the window at that point

that's the problem...

RB

[SCfuji]

any called hand is allowed to be seen. this is an abused privilege created to prevent collusion among players. nowadays it is used for sheer pleasure/entertainment. just groan and let them do it, but if they do then your hand is live and if you misread your hand and it was a winner that pot is yours.

[SCfuji]

its not a stupid rule. its just abused.

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]

did he think he was colluding with himself? - a 3rd party, I can totally understand...but the winner of the heads up match? - the reasons for the rule go totally out the window at that point


[/ QUOTE ]

No argument from me on that. I'm was just recounting the rule and it's purpose. That people use it the way they do is stupid.

Regars,

T

[Moyer]

Yeah I didn't make a big deal of it. I just mentioned that I didn't know that was a rule and I thought it was odd.

A couple younger guys next to me said they didn't know either, but they were gonna start using it all the time.