1-5 Seven card stud question.

1-5 Seven Card stud with $1.00 forced bring-in.


After raising the bring-in with the "highest pair" either a Ace or King, I push (jam) this pair

(without improvement)with $5.00 bets until I see a paired door-card or a higher pair, if I have the highest board or it's checked to me, until seventh street.


Is this play appropriate? I would appreciate opinions, and hopefully Mr. Ray Zee will comment.


Thanks,


John L

headup mostly. multiway you slow down if the other hands develop badly for you.

most times the hand doesnt go like this though. you get check raises in or get bet into at some point.

Factors to consider on 3rd street: how live are your pair cards, ditto your kicker? What's your position? An early raise obviously is good to narrow the field, but if you're in late position and you there are already many callers you may hurt yourself by building too big a pot early on, making it right for people to draw against you on later streets. In a multiway pot with an unimproved big pair you are likely to become a dog.

Check-raises in 1-5 stud? That's a true rarity. If someone check-raises you, you can almost fold without looking at your opponents cards. He's got your big pair beat somehow. But, you won't be able to get a check-raise in because everone will be scared off by your 3rd street bet of $5. In Vegas, it is rare for anbody to raise on 3rd street-very rare.


It's even unlikely that you'll get bet into if you've been betting $5 since 3rd street. If you do, it's almost certain your opponent has Aces-up or better and probably at least a straight.

In Vegas, 3rd street raises are rare. I don't raise on 3rd street because the Vegas game has no antes. There is simply nothing in the pot to win.


When there is a 3rd street raise, especially a $5 raise, it is hardly ever called. How many callers do you typically get when you raise $5 on 3rd street?

I generally think it is a mistake to raise the bring in with these hands if there is no ante. Also I would not always continue to bet on fifth or sixth street if there are multiple callers. With only two other opponents I would continue to bet but with more than that you are better off just checking and checkraising if you get the opportunity of even folding depending on the action.


Pat

Third street: in a tight no-ante game, I usually raise to $3 if I'm first to act, to $4 if there's one limper, and to $6 if there are two or more limpers. I do this with almost any good hand, not just the premium pairs. In a looser game I just throw $6 in there.


If nobody wants to play with me, that's fine - I'm willing to pick up the bring-in and the odd $1 limper. I may lose some profit when I hold AA or KK, which isn't that often, but I'll make up for it by winning a lot more than I should with trash.


Also, frequent raising throws the nits off their game. Most of them think they have some god-given right to see four cards for $1, and it tilts them when there's someone at the table spoiling their party. They'll either leave, hopefully freeing up a seat for someone who came to play, or they'll start playing your game instead of theirs, and they won't be very good at it.


Anyway, with pairs, you don't want to get in multiway pots. So raise enough on third that you're keeping the pot 3-way at most, preferably 2-way. People who limp with big pairs here are just getting greedy and are begging to get run down. You're giving drawing hands potentially huge implied odds to bust your butt. Besides, it won't work against good players who are familiar with this common tactic.


On subsequent streets, whether to keep jamming depends to a great extent on whether you successfully thinned the field on third. If you got a lot of callers, you need to go to Plan B, which as Ray pointed out, is to check and hope somebody bets far enough behind you that you can check-raise and get some of the riff-raff out. If you wind up giving up a free card here it's usually not that big a deal because you probably needed one yourself - an unimproved big pair doesn't win very often in a multiway pot.


TRLS

so if he pairs his say dead door card you wouldnt ever checkraise him when he leads out. or you say he will never lead out since you raised on third street. then the game is so beatable it doesnt matter how you play.

I'm not saying that's the way I play 1-5 stud (or any stud). I jubiliantly raise or check-raise when I think the situation is right.


I'm saying that >95% of Vegas 1-5 stud players (1) won't check-raise you when you've shown so much strength (or check-raise at all). and (2) won't bet into you without a big hand when you've shown so much strength.


I assume they fear getting raised or 3-bet by somebody who could have a monster hand like rolled-up trips. It's very easy to take control of a hand in 1-5 stud. By the way, all you have to do is raise once in a hand to take control of it. You will always get checked to unless somebody has made something big. Even if you check behind, you will usually get checked to again. I've even had players who know me check to me because I called!


I played 1-5 stud in Vegas through most of the Summer (30+ hrs per week) before moving up to the 4-8 & 5-10 stud games and learning Hold'em. There were definitely stretches of weeks without seeing any of my opponents raise on 3rd street. There were also prolonged stretches without seeing anybody else check-raise. It just isn't done. It should be, of course, but it isn't.


The only problem beating Vegas 1-5 stud is the rake. I believe it's a max of $5 (maybe $4 but I don't think so) plus the $1 jackpot rake in every poker room except the Bellagio and Mirage (Flamingo is $0.50).

Regarding 3rd street with a big pair in a no-ante game, you guys are SO diametrically opposed (no raise vs a definite raise of varying size) that I hope you each explain your thinking a little further...

My thoughts are that since there is no ante you want players to call on third street when they are large dogs. When you have a big pair it does little good to raise since it is, in my opinion, almost a disaster when you win just the bring in. When I played 1-5 I treated third street as almost the ante level, and would call the bring in with a lot of hands, many more than I would raise with. It is worth the risk to just call since you will get players who will play to the end with almost no chance of winning if you improve. But if even two players will call your raise it is a completely different story, and there are many games where four players will call the raise. In that case you should absolutely raise.


There is no real difference between what we are saying, it is just a function of the game you play. In a tight game call, in a loose game raise.


Pat

Lin Sherman clearly/colorfully expressed the way to play the highest pair on third street.


I appreciate your responses.


John

Hello,Ray,

I've played about 10000 hrs of 1-5 stud. It's rare for a player at that limit to check-raise.

It's not considered proper to do so .


Sitting Bull

Hello,Mr.RB,

Both Lin and Pat explained their reason for playing 3rd the way they do.

However,Pat doesn't consider a reduced raise to obtain some action by one or two players--Lin does.

Lin also considers raising with big live cards,a

live big card with a small or medium buried pair, and other semi-bluffs.

Pat did not consider these other options.


Sitting Bull

good that they dont check raise you, but its crazy not to use the checkraise yourself with maybe some descretion. its hard enough to win in small games fading the high rake, let alone playing without all your tools.

You are right about the reduced raise. When I first started playing, I was watching my brother play in a 1-5 game at the Monte Carlo. He rasied the bring in to $2 and everyone folded. He had rolled tens! Ever since then I felt it was better to just call on third rather than raise a reduced amount. But it is not wrong to raise a reduced amount, I just rarely did it.


As far as live big cards I dont think they are worth a raise in 1-5 and I basically just called the bring in. I do not see how it is worthwhile to raise with them when there is noante. These cards main value is as a steal(which is worthless at 1-5) or to win small pots when you semibluff on later streets or pair up in a heads up or threeway pot. This also rarely happens at 1-5. But you played a hell of a lot more 1-5 than I have (less than 50 hours), so you probably know the game better than I.


As far as medium pairs, when there is a raise it is generally better to fold when there is no ante since you are a bigger dog on third than the odds you are getting. The best play is just to call, in my mind, since a raise will likely be called only by players who can beat you in a tight game, and will be called by too many players with overcards so that you are in an unprofitable situation in a loose game. This hand is one of the hands that is very affected by the lack of antes.


Pat

The reduced raise is bad with either a weak hand -- like a medium pair -- or a very strong hand, like

rolled trips. But I think it is good with a high pair, occaisonally with a live high flush or straight draw and I will disagree and say it is not bad with three live high cards (with two overcards to the board). It can also be good situationally if you think it will get you head up or three way where you have an overpair. For instance, if four players have folded, one has limped with a jack (and you believe this player would raise with a pair of jacks), you're next with 10-4 10r and a loose passive player with a 9 and a player with a 4 are behind you, a $1 raise in $1-3 can be an effective way to either get head up with the jack or play in a situation in which you are probably winning and have many scare cards you can catch -- any 10-q-k-a.

Hello, Pat,

I generally agree with your analysis.

I'm impressed that you just have fewer than 100 hours under your belt and still come up with excellent strategies! You are definitely a great poker theorist!

Well,I have over 10000 hours of play but I don't think I can beat you in a heads-up game.


Sitting Bull