Should I have played tighter as 2nd stack 4 handed?

[betgo]

Party $10 SNG. Blinds 150/300. I am UTG/CO with T2100; button has T800, SB T4100, and BB T1000. I have A9o and push. Get called by SB big stack with AQo. End of SNG.

Should I have folded here? I have a good chance at 2nd place money by playing passively.

[ThorGoT]

Yes, you should have played tighter. I have made the same mistake at a higher buy-in game, and it stinks. This hand, the small blind (big stack) will probably steal from the big blind, no matter what he has. The two small stacks are going to have to try to steal soon, and are likely to go bust (say, 50/50 chance for each, both do it, 75% chance that one of them will go out). Wait until three are left, open it up then. Jump from fourth to third is the biggest proportional jump of all.

[TheDrone]

Depends on how tight the table is playing on the bubble, especially the big stack. If they will call with any ace, then I think A9o is good enough. Basically you don't want to push it if the only calls you get are pocket pairs or AT+. Overall I fold A9o in this spot much more than I play it though.

[captZEEbo1]

there are a few ways to play this hand. Either fold (always good, since there's a decent chance the shortstacks will push at eachother if the bigstack doesn't steal for them), limp or MIN raise. I'm NEVER going allin here. When there's a guy with twice your stack acting after you, you have to play a LITTLE different. A min raise, would accomplish the same thing as an allin. If the bigstack calls, you'll be in check/fold mode unless you hit a really good flop (hard to do with A9o). If he pushes, he isn't screwing around and has a good hand (or is very aggressive and a gambler). If he folds and either shortstack calls, they are essentially calling allin, b/c he'll be so pot committed, he'll be forced to call allin (or will push allin) on any flop.

A limp is not bad either. Unless someone has a good hand, big stack will fold, sb will fold (assuming you will call and likely have him dominated) and bb will check. Then just min bet any flop and he'll probably fold. The key is to avoid confrontations with someone who WON'T be hurt if he calls your allin.

Right now, I'm probably folding utg. A9 is good 4 handed, but not GREAT. If you're called you're usually WAY behind (except if someone is desperate).

[lorinda]

You have something like 1100 "spare" chips here, I mean you can lose that much and still be second place.

You can raise to an arbitary number here - I like 750 - without risking your whole tourney as long as it's between a mini raise and the 1100.

I think you have to raise to keep the pressure on the small guys.

Lori

Lori

[morgan180]

I would fold in this instance. Let the chip leader in the SB put the pressure on the shorter stacks - especially your nearest competition the big blind. Then when you are in the BB its your turn to put the pressure on him again when he's in the SB.

But if not I like Lorinda's play - and will use that one myself (ty lorinda!)

[Jason Strasser]

[ QUOTE ]
You have something like 1100 "spare" chips here, I mean you can lose that much and still be second place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maaaaaaah. Bleh.

This line of thinking is very dangerous in my opinion. Very dangerous. First of all, because a sit and go pays out 2xbuyin to third, 3x to second, and 5x to first, you get rewarded for finishing first. (on party)

So, this type of thinking where "I can lose x chips and stay ahead of y" is really flawed. Your goal is to pick hands with enough equity to push in the right spots, and to execute. A9, 4 handed, UTG, has plenty of value IMO to push. In fact, it's not even close. I'd push KT, KJ, A7, 22 here given the right table conditions and current blind size and stack size.

The fact is, you can not play scared of being busted out. You will get rewarded for the times you steal blinds and play aggressive. Raising to 750 invites smart big stacks to play back at you. In fact, if I were the big stack and you raised to 750, I would set you all in with almost any 2 cards, because your raise screams I have a hand I want to raise with but dont want to go bust with on the river. The higher level of sng you play, the more you will understand that you must push this hand preflop, or fold, otherwise you will get eaten alive by smart players.

Be confident with your moves, finish fourth and first more often, and you will win more money than playing scared, as Lorinda suggested. The thought that you have spare chips here because you are x amount ahead of the others should not enter your thoughts.

My 2 cents,

-Jason

[lorinda]

Jason, whilst I agree, you are missing one vital piece of information.

Party $10 SNG

Although you will find some smart stacks at this level, most players are just playing their cards and paying almost 0 attention to what you raise, why you raise or what you might have.

I certainly wouldn't make this play in a 2+2sng or at the $50 level, but $10 games, at least in my opinion, are a simple case of get what you can as cheap as possible.

I post this, not to argue with you, as I respect your opinion highly, and others should go back, right now, and re-read your post.
I just feel you give the low limit players too much credit.

Armed with both posts, people should make their own decisions based on the standard of the specific sit and go they are in and what has gone before.

Certainly this is not often an option if there are skilled players on the table.

Lori

[ron dogg]

This is great stuff and imo, totally correct. Playing not to lose is a sure way to hit the rail. I think this is an easy push here. In NLH short handed it is the aggressor who gets the spoils.

that is all-
R-

[Jason Strasser]

Ok, I concede. In the 30s on party, there were enough aware players, and that is what I had in mind while writing my post. But if the 10s are really that horrible, I'm sure there are all sorts of lovely holes in my game.

Cheers,

-Jason

[lorinda]

No conceding required, I didn't mention the critical point that you make that no matter what the limit, the table has to be full of morons for the play to be valid.

It is important that people understand both posts and apply the appropriate one in the situation they are in.


Lori

[tallstack]

IMO, there is a huge amount of "results oriented" thinking going on in this thread. I would love to see what the replies would have been if you had just posted the player stacks and your hand, without reporting the outcome.

I think your raise all-in was pretty standard here. You have only one dangerous opponent and he is in the SB. You will not get a call from him here in the vast majority of cases. Both the button and the BB will have to have a hand to call you here, so I think that the fold equity is very high. I don't see anything wrong with your play.

You also only have 7BB and will have to post in both of the next 2 hands. You are not a lock for 2nd place at all. Playing safe will leave you pretty short stacked in 5 hands if the others survive their blinds.

Dave S

[betgo]

I think I probably made the right move. I could also have folded in early position.

I don't think limping or miniraising are options. That just invotes the big stack to steal from me. Plus A9 is a hand you want to steal with or get the money in preflop with, not see a flop.

There was about a 10% chance the big stack had a hand that dominates me, in which case he is pretty certain to call. If he does, I have about a 25% chance of winning. So there is a 7.5% chance of busting out. Any other hand the big stack calls withis probably going to be about even against A9. If I lose, I am out, but if I win, I have 4700 or 8000 chips, and probably 1st place.

With the push, everyone knows I am risking busting out of pretty certain atleast 3rd place money, so they know I have a real hand, probably atleast a medium ace, two face cards, or a pair. I might not play a big pair that way, but I could have AK or JJ. The small stacks know if they lose, they are out of the money. The big stack knows if he loses he is no longer the big stack, and probably not going to take 1st. Aside from being EV+, this play hads some value in being forceful. For one thing, it makes the big stack think twice about bullying me, knowing I am not afraid of busting out.

[pshreck]

[ QUOTE ]

If I lose, I am out, but if I win, I have 4700 or 8000 chips, and probably 1st place.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is incorrect thought. Yes, 4700 is a whole lot better than 2K, but it doesn't make you even close to a guaranteed first place. I think with 4700 it puts you in a 95% chance (possibly better) to place ITM, and probably a 75% chance to place 1st or 2nd.

So... Id venture and say that any time you double up with A 9 its because you got lucky (unless the big stack is playing sheriff, or the oh so popular call off my stack with KQ play is in effect) The push play is to pick up the blinds, which you really dont need to do at the cost of your tournament life (being second place and very likely ITM finish). I saw some other posts reccomending betting less... this is perfect. Bet and try to pick up those blinds. If you get in a situation then play it from there. If the big stack comes over the top then you will fold, always.

With

[lastchance]

I think a minraise is fine here, as long as you are sure that you can minraise and then call with hands like AJo and 77 when big stack moves in for all his chips.

Actually, a minraise is ok, but probably isn't the best option. 7x BB is just a tad too short for my tastes. I am pretty clear that this is the right play with 9-10x BB though, and maybe 8x BB.

However, I do agree limping is total crap. Gotta pick up blinds.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I concede. In the 30s on party, there were enough aware players, and that is what I had in mind while writing my post. But if the 10s are really that horrible, I'm sure there are all sorts of lovely holes in my game.

Cheers,

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

Jason, please DO NOT worry about giving high level advice when it may not apply. We don't mind. Just don't stop posting on this forum. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[lorinda]

Jason, please DO NOT worry about giving high level advice when it may not apply. We don't mind. Just don't stop posting on this forum

Seconded.

Lori

[betgo]

Jason's analysis is good, but he could work on tact. I want him to keep posting.

Miniraising in this situation seems to be inviting the big stack to steal. It is true that in a $10 SNG the big stack may not realize that.

The situation is also tricky in that the second stack might miniraise with a big hand, hoping for the big stack to call or raise. The big stack may also be afraid to call or raise with junk, fearing a trap.

[stupidsucker]

I dont always agree with Jason, but often when I disagree I find out later I am wrong. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

I will have to think about how I feel about this one, but I am leaning towards agree. (I also agree that for the 10s that folding is a fine idea. Pushing isnt bad on the 10s because IMO they are so bad that so many will call you with A2-A8 that it may be worth the risk of running into AT-AK or Kx or a small pair.