What would you call with here?

[durron597]

Imagine the following situation. You have some number of BB on the button, midway through an SnG. A player in MP, also with about the same number of BB open-raises to 3xBB, and it's folded to you. Assume for the sake of argument that the blinds are tight and you don't expect them to call. Also assume that your stack size is around average stack at the moment.

You regard this player as somewhat solid, but capable of making post-flop mistakes (both folding at the wrong times, and calling at the wrong times). You don't regard him as too tight or too loose necessarily, just decent that could use a little work on plugging some leaks.

You look down and see two cards.

(Note: this post is modified slightly from the previous version, partly due to SmileyEH's reply to the other thread; which I deleted because you can't modify a poll after the fact.)

[durron597]

With 50xBB, three of you wouldn't call a 3xBB raise with 55? How do you people build stacks?

[SmileyEH]

Wow...now I know where I make my profits...people calling 15% of their stack off with KQo. Absolutely terrible.

The only call in the survey is 55 with 50xBB for me.

GO SOX!

-SmileyEH

[durron597]

I find it interesting that KJs is a pretty common call hand (while AJo is not) in all three cases, yet 55's popularity drops steeply.

I mean, I know why, but it's still interesting.

As to obvious folds, SmileyEH, this poll was less to answer my questions than to see what everyone else's reply.

Anyone care to defend their answers? For example, I think that 98s is a clear call with 50xBB; it's a small portion of your stack and if you hit the flop hard your hand is disguised and you can easily win his stack. Thoughts?

[viennagreen]

I'm not entirely sure whether I understand your scenario.

You say "midway through an SNG". I take that to mean that there are 5 players left.

If so--- I'm really surprised at how tight the respondents are, considering the size of the stacks involved.

If midway through an SNG means something else (like 7 or 8 players, but 50/100 blinds) then that changes things quite a bit.

I'm a Party player though--- and the question doesn't make much sense. Midway through a tournament, two players with 30xBB is very rare, two with 50xBB just doesn't happen

[viennagreen]

I agree that with 50xBB, 98s is a clear call... I think that with position, any of the hands in the poll are clear calls with 50xBB. It doesn't make any sense to fold to such a small raise, when any solid player with a big stack will be raising 3xBB with a very large range of hands.

At least-- with 50xBB, I would be raising 3xBB with any of those hands at least some of the time.

My only concern with calling with those hands would be the stack sizes of the blinds--- are they going to force me to call their all-in?

[Gigabet]

The poll here is not an accurate judgement of calling requirements....I will call with every one of those hands with 50xbb, if my opponent also has 50xbb. That is really the only important thing. I wouldn't call most of those hands if my opponent couldn't add a sizable amount to my stack.

If he is too short to make much of a difference I am reraising with the group of hands that I will play w/50xbb in the situations where I don't have good implied odds. Otherwise I will fold(55 is an easy fold in that situation).

[lorinda]

The only call in the survey is 55 with 50xBB for me.

You should be calling with 30xBB too, and 20 if I've read the question right.

Edit: The other hands are garbage and should only be played in certain scenarios.


Lori

[SmileyEH]

30xBB is possible for 55, but there is no way I would ever call getting less than 7-1 implied odds for 55. You would have to win your opp's stack EVERY time, and NEVER lose after flopping a set for this to be profitable.

-SmileyEH

[lorinda]

You are calling 2 bets with a stack of 20 was how i read it.

I agree, if it's 3 it's a fold.

Lori

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
A player in MP, also with about the same number of BB open-raises to 3xBB

[/ QUOTE ]

-SmileyEH

[ilya]

My answers:

20xBB: none of the above
30xBB: none of the above
50xBB: 55

[durron597]

Is it clear to everyone here that you are the button for all of these hands?

When you call with a hand like A9s, 98s, etc, you aren't looking for one pair, you are looking to stack him by flopping a monster or a monster draw.

I agree that in the 20xBB case, most of these are a fold, but in the 50xBB case, A9s, KJs, 98s, and 55 are clear calls for me. It's the 30xBB case where it starts to get tricky. Are you all telling me that you fold these hands on the button in level one of party after a raise to 45 chips vs. a player who often makes post-flop mistakes?

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow...now I know where I make my profits...people calling 15% of their stack off with KQo. Absolutely terrible.

The only call in the survey is 55 with 50xBB for me.

GO SOX!

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, you people are all WAY too tight. 55 is the hardest hand to play here too. Its only real worth is for set flopping here, and in my opinion this is endemic in players overplaying small and medium pockets pairs.

I play tight, and i'd call first 4 for first 2 Q's, and all for the third, ESPECIALLY given the fact you can outplay flop on. This is a SNG, not the WSOP, people. Calling KQo for 15% is NOT terrible, BTW in this situation, and I'm not one of the people you make $$$ off of, believe me.

[lorinda]

With all respect Dali, you play a higher limit to most of us.

There is absolutely no point in playing A9 or KJ in this position in the lower limits.

Lori

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
With all respect Dali, you play a higher limit to most of us.

There is absolutely no point in playing A9 or KJ in this position in the lower limits.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, that makes more sense then , but 55 ONLY value to me still seems to be set value.

[lastchance]

Why are hands like A9, KJ, KQ worth less at lower limits? And what hands should I be playing in place of them?

[lorinda]

Why are hands like A9, KJ, KQ worth less at lower limits? And what hands should I be playing in place of them?


You should be saving every chip you can for when you have the fish in the net, and then doubling your entire stack.

In the higher games, Dali is looking for a small edge on each hand, because these edges add up, but in the lower limits you can cut this fluctuation a great deal and just throw your whole stack in with much the best of it (and often where you can't lose) and win enough chips to not need to play marginals.

Saving your chips for these events, for as long as you dare, is a much better investment.

The reason I'll play 55 IS for the set value, but the set value is much bigger in the lower limits as you'll "always" get paid, and often get unneccessary free cards and even showdowns.

Lori

[lorinda]

For what it's worth I'd play most of these, if not all in a 50BB ring game where I can add more chips to my stack if I don't win the pot.

Lori

[Klak]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are hands like A9, KJ, KQ worth less at lower limits? And what hands should I be playing in place of them?

[/ QUOTE ]

id say that they are worthless because all the likly raising hands have them dominated.