AQs, how many mistakes?

[Fianchetto]

I was new to the table so had no reads at the time. I initially suspected the CO to be a decent player, but after several orbits of play I would be proven wrong. He was willing to call many bets preflop with just about any type of hand.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Preflop was about the only street I actually felt good about.

Flop: (8 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Now if the CO was raising the flop with a big club, I don't want him taking a free card on the turn. Also, if he has a weak ace I charge him by betting, and I wouldn't completely hate him raising again if it knocks out the BB who may have had a weak club draw. So I bet the turn.

Turn: (7 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, BB folds, Hero calls.

River: (11 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls.

I'm going to call a bet on the end anyway, so I decided to bet. I doubt that a better hand will fold, but I may get a call from weaker hands that would have checked it through. Oops he raised, worse yet I call. Did I totally misapply the Clark four flush theorem here?

Final Pot: 15 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 15 BB, between Hero and CO.</font>

[etizzle]

doesnt his theorem involve folding to a raise? I forget.

[CanKid]

CO = K /images/graemlins/club.gif Tx ?

[Fianchetto]

The CO had J /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif for the flopped flush.

Gotta love Party, but I'm curious what people think of leading into him again on the turn and on the river after he has raised me.

[Emoney]

i think stop and go was the right play. the river screwed you. get away from the raise on the end.

[GuyOnTilt]

Did I totally misapply the Clark four flush theorem here?

The statement that Clark made about rivered 4-flushes was true. Applying it to this hand is stupid.

GoT

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
The CO had J /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif for the flopped flush.

Gotta love Party, but I'm curious what people think of leading into him again on the turn and on the river after he has raised me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just read the results but even before I peeked I was hating the turn play. I understand you thinking that you likely have the best hand, and didnt want him to take a free one on the turn. But after you bet and get popped, you cant beat a thing. You have now shown strength on three streets in a row, and you got raised. It's time to throw your hand away. But before you bet the turn, if you think he is the type who may raise you with a worse hand, I think you need to check call. Agaist tricky types who are capable of making that play betting and folding to a raise is too exploitable there.

On the river GOT is right, this just isnt the time to be leading at the 4 flush. I think you need to ask yourself if he's going to fold a worse hand with this many bets in the pot. He will pay it off with three tens. Also, there a lot of situations where you might get called by a worse hand even when the four flush has hit. This is defintely not one of those times either.

[Fianchetto]

Steve, thanks for the response, it sounds like the turn was the time to get away from this hand.

[Fianchetto]

<ul type="square">
Cost of purchasing HPFAP, TOP and SSH: $75

Getting beat up in the Party $15-$30 game: $900

Having GuyOnTilt call you stupid: Priceless!

[/list]

Seriously though, how the F*!# does that help me, or anyone? I know the hand was not well played, that is why I posted it asking about the mistakes. I don't have years of playing experience, but I'm trying to get better in these situations by understanding WHY it is stupid.

[kirbyatihop]

If this hand was played right when you entered the table then you were horribly out drawn and made a bad bet on the river aand a marginal one on the turn but if you have been sitting there and realized this guy will play anything i think you did the right play until the lead in on the river because [censored] knows what this guy has

[Ian J]

[ QUOTE ]
I initially suspected the CO to be a decent player.
3 folds[/i]</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls

[/ QUOTE ]

For future reference, this is rarely the action of a decent player.

As for the hand, bet the flop and call the raise. Then when the turn brings no club, I always like to bet again. When he raises you there, you have to make a decision. It's call down or fold time. Never bet the river here.

[The Bear]

[ QUOTE ]

Seriously though, how the F*!# does that help me, or anyone? I know the hand was not well played, that is why I posted it asking about the mistakes. I don't have years of playing experience, but I'm trying to get better in these situations by understanding WHY it is stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

You picked the wrong spot for the Clark 4-flush play. Roughly paraphrased, it goes like this: "When you're heads-up and first to act, and you have been betting a hand for value the whole way and a 4-flush comes in on the river, always bet."

It doesn't say: "When you get raised on two streets on a 3-flushed board and the 4-flush comes in on the river, lead out."

Clark's theorem, as it is known, is simply a basic application of TOP river play.

[AlwaysWrong]

To me this seems like an easy fold on the turn. Up to that point I'd play the same way. I'm curious about what people think about the turn call. The only reasonable hand that you could be beating is AJs, no clubs. And would the CO raise with that hand after you led out on the turn after being raised on the flop? Would they think you were still betting your flush draw?

The river play was clearly wrong, I don't think there's any argument there. I can't see not betting on the flop, as you'd really vomit if it checked through and some weak club won the hand where they would have folded on the flop, or even just missing all the value from your bet with everyone chasing. So the only point for discussion seems to be the turn?