10, Jack suited. Looking for opinion.

[dcarlc]

This is in a live 15/30 game. I am 2 off the button. Everyone has folded to me, I have 10,jack suited. Cutoff and the button are very tight players. The blinds are going to defend there blinds 90 to 95% of the time. I'm interested in anybody's opinion on limping as to coming in with a raise. Thanks.

[lil feller]

Limping is for wusses, and if you don't raise, the rocks behind you are going to smell your wretched weakness and do it for you. If you play, you must raise, buy yourself the button and play the flop with the blind defenders...I don't see any other playable line here.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

limping is by far the worst of the 3 options you have. and it's not even close.

[NYplayer]

This is just wrong. Limping is much better than folding. To say that folding is much better than limping and that it isn't close shows a clear lack of understanding for the game. However, Raising is the best option. Even though the blinds will play a lot of the time you maintain control and may be able to pick up the pot on the flop when an A or K fall anyway.

[RydenStoompala]

Raising is the correct play. Limping is a poor play on a lot of levels. First of all, you could get trapped in a high pair drawing game and loose more than if you had just folded. Your kicker is weak. If the blinds are going to defend their bets regardless, then play a good hand for its value. Limping leaves them believing there would be good reason to get into a drawing battle with you post-flop. When you raise, you could also use a check-raise with good effect on the turn, regardless of the card. I totally disagree with anyone who would recommend that you limp in. Folding IS a better bet than limping.

[bigpooch]

Raising is quite clear. Even hands such as J9s and T9s are
enough to raise with unless the blinds tend to 3bet with a
lot of hands that dominate these. Make your position the
cutoff and you ought to be raising with hands as weak as 98s
and T8s as long as you have good control after the flop
although in this case, there would be a good case to just
call with some hands.

[Noo Yawk]

Raise. It doesn't matter if the BB and SB come along. If they are defending as high a percentage of time as you say, then you'll have position on 2 other callers that hold much weaker hands most of the time. Just make sure you know their post-flop tendencies to get the most out of these situations.

[MrGo]

[ QUOTE ]
This is just wrong. Limping is much better than folding. To say that folding is much better than limping and that it isn't close shows a clear lack of understanding for the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what are your reasons then?

[dcarlc]

Appreciate all your thoughts. Flop came A64, SB bets, BB calls I just fold. SB bets turn and BB folds.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

educate me then please. i obviously have no clue. what benefit is it to openlimp JTs in this spot?

[elysium]

hi dc

that's all you can do.

[BottlesOf]

Hey CDC-

Folding JTs here has an EV of 0. Do you think open-limping JTs here has a -EV?

I agree, raising is clearly best.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think open-limping JTs here has a -EV?

[/ QUOTE ]

When openlimping, you're inviting playing this hand out of position and possibly getting iso-raised. you take away all the inititive in the hand. there is absolutely zero reason to ever openlimp here. if your opponents have any sense at all, they'll punish you with their position and their aggressiveness. as soon as you put in your chips in the middle of the table, you must realize what does that accomplish? What do you hope to happen? Do you want callers behind you? Do you want everyone to fold? Why do I want play this hand so close to the button, and yet not try to have the button?

[mike l.]

i raise but not because i want to steal the blinds but because i want to take control of the hand. this means im going to be checking the flop at least some of the time when they check to me. if the blinds are good/tricky/extra aggressive or anything like that then folding quickly becomes the better option.

limping is not an option at all. and by tight cutoff and button im hoping that means theyll fold hands like AT when i raise from two off the button otherwise forget it.

[Philuva]

[ QUOTE ]
limping is not an option at all. and by tight cutoff and button im hoping that means theyll fold hands like AT when i raise from two off the button otherwise forget it.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one is this tight. And I think it is still worthwhile to raise with TJs in the CO+1 even if they will call with AT.

[Boopotts]

If you're going to have to deal with a tricky player on the button (which, by the way, is not the case in the example the original poster presented), then limp with the intention of re-raising if the button raises. You do this because you think there's a good chance that the button will raise if you limp, and it's almost always better to be the three-bettor (especially when you find yourself embroiled in these late-position hand-control fiascos) than to be three-bet.

JTs rates to be a better hand than anything your opponents hold. Thus, it has to have +EV. So you can't muck. How you want to handle it exactly is up to you, but folding can't be right.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

limp re-raising here with JTs? that just can't be right.

what would even be the point? you're paying 3 bets for this hand upfront AND you're still out of position. lrr here would just be chip spewing and you were better off folding.

[DrGutshot]

Raising>Folding>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Limpin g

Raise this up 30% of the time, so if you do catch a hand once in a while and it gets shown down, they'll note you as semi-loco and pay off your next "steal" with a real hand.

-DrG

[Ezcheeze]

Limping has got to be better than folding. By his description most of the time he gets heads up or 3 way with the blinds who essentially have random hands. JTs with position vs 2 random hands fairs very well for the JTs.

Now that that's out of the way, raising is the best choice since it usually gives you a better chance of winning the pot postflop and gets more money in vs. the blinds crappy hands.

-Ezcheeze

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
JTs with position vs 2 random hands fairs very well for the JTs.



[/ QUOTE ]

but position is NOT guarenteed if you limp because there's players to act behind you. limping encourages them to be in the hand too.

[MaGi]

I think both limping and folding are very poor decisions here, obviously i vote raise. If any face card flops you will have a good chance of either picking up the pot or winning it in a showdown.

[Steve Giufre]

limping there would be horrible.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

that's what i've been saying steve....

but they're still saying limping is better than folding and i just don't buy that

[Lawrence Ng]

Any marginal hands you plan to steal with should be raised if you are first in. That or fold.

Limping is for guys on viagra.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
This is in a live 15/30 game. I am 2 off the button. Everyone has folded to me, I have 10,jack suited. Cutoff and the button are very tight players. The blinds are going to defend there blinds 90 to 95% of the time. I'm interested in anybody's opinion on limping as to coming in with a raise. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

raise.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
educate me then please. i obviously have no clue. what benefit is it to openlimp JTs in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

CDC,

to get isolated by CO or button. or to get over powered by one of the blinds... or better yet, to induce over-limps behind you so you can play a speculative hand out of position...

there are more, but i think you need to learn these fundamentals first...

Kenny

[Boopotts]

Two things:

1) We're talking about playing against a tricky button.

2) My point-- and looking back I don't think I phrased this well at all-- is that limp-reraising against an aggressive but competent player on the button is better than folding.

[astroglide]

they're still saying limping is better than folding and i just don't buy that

would you advocate folding it to a blind steal then? you're playing it 1) for a raise and 2) out of position. what is the difference?

[Ezcheeze]

I agree with you both that limping is horrible since raising is so much better. However, if my only choices were to fold or call then I would call. Remember, there is already 1 and 2/3rd small bets in the pot. Maybe there exist players who if on the button or CO could turn this into -EV but I don't think there are many of them that are that good. Do you agree that most of the time the CO and Button have trash hands and you will end up 3 way with the blinds? If the CO or Button wants to iso raise you with sub par hands then would you really mind?

-Ezcheeze

[Don Olney]

99% of the time-- if you are going to play this hand in this spot --- it is a raise--- HOWEVER -- if you have been attacking from this spot most of the night it is not out of the line of thought to limp with this hand here -------
you then have the option to hit it again if someone rasies behind you or even tossing if the betting gets hit hard pre-flop from the rest. --- A good trap hand if the board hits you good, a good simi-bluff if it hits you soft and a good hand to toss if need be post flop ------

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
When openlimping, you're inviting playing this hand out of position and possibly getting iso-raised. you take away all the inititive in the hand. there is absolutely zero reason to ever openlimp here.

[/ QUOTE ]
No one disagreed with this. He didn't claim that limping is right or better than raising. He said that limping is better than folding, which it is. Even if you think limping is better, your original claim that it's not close is ridiculous. There's no way that limping could have a heavily negative ev, which is what it would need to be much worse than folding.

I think it is funny that this is coming up now, because just yesterday I commented (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1129103&page=1&view=e xpanded&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1) on how frustrating I find it that people throw around the cliche "raising and folding are both better options than calling" in situations where it's clearly not true. Poker isn't entirely about being macho. You can't always assume that calling is your worst option and still play well.

However, I certainly agree here that calling is worse than raising in this spot. But is still better than folding, which would just be ridiculous, especially given the blind structure of the game.

[bobbyi]

I was with you right up until the end of the post:
[ QUOTE ]
im hoping that means theyll fold hands like AT when i raise from two off the button otherwise forget it.

[/ QUOTE ]
What does "otherwise forget it" mean? Are you saying that if they won't fold hands like AT then you aren't raising here? What are you doing then? I'm confused about what you are trying to say with "forget it". Thanks.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising>Folding>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Limpin g

[/ QUOTE ]
You are the second one to say this. It seems ridiculous. The fact that "Rasing>Folding" in this spot is hopefully self-evident to everyone reading this board. This may not true be true in certain special cases, but it seems that we all agree that it is true in the general case.

But how can anyone possibly think that "Folding>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Limping"? Folding clearly has an EV of 0. So by using that many ">"s, you are saying that Limping has a severely negative EV in this spot with $25 already in the pot against four opponents with random cards, that figure to be worse on average than your hand. If you can't manage to break even (or even manage to lose only a small amount) in this spot, then you are severely outclassed by your opponents and need to find a new game.

[astroglide]

i think i did a decent job of proving it - anybody that thinks folding is better than limping would also fold this in the bb if the pot were raised. i doubt any of them would.

[bobbyi]

I agree. That's a very compelling argument. It's nice to see someone try to further the discussion with a well-thought out point like that, rather than just blindly parrotting platitudes. Thanks.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone has folded to me, I have 10,jack suited. Cutoff and the button are very tight players. The blinds are going to defend there blinds 90 to 95% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

To me, the likelihood of buying the button overshadows the looseness of the blinds. Raise it.

If you were on the button, first in, i could see limping as they arent likely to fold to a raise and it may help you steal on the flop. I'd still probably raise it though.

b

oh, and limping is much better than folding.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
that's what i've been saying steve....

but they're still saying limping is better than folding and i just don't buy that

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I didnt read enough of the posts to pick that up. Anyhow, since both of us will be coming in with a raise in that spot, we wont have to worry about the limp or fold dilemma.

[roy_miami]

Totally dependent on your opponents in the CO and button. If they are tight as you indicated then raising is better. If they are loose passives and or calling stations, limping is better. If 1 or more is maniac-al aggressive then folding may be best.