AQo in the SB. Things get hectic postflop on a paired/flush board.

[bisonbison]

UTG is really loose and pretty aggro. Not a maniac. But really loose and pretty aggro.

MP is a little loose but passive.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Button folds, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (13.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>...

[Alobar]

I really dont like the river bet. Youve got a passive player raising on the flop. he then raises an aggro when the flush card falls. So I think hes got at least a ten, or a flush. JT and KT are likely holdings for a ten he could have in his hand. The way the hand has played out you have no reason to think its getting checked through on this river, and you have to call a raise but would rather not have to. Just check and call.

I'd say that a turn fold might not be to horrible, but I know that would get me ripped on.

[ode]

I'm not sure if I like the river bet. There's quite a bunch of hands that beat you, that loose players would have played. UTG perhaps with any two suited diamonds (if he is really that loose). MP1 could have KT, AT, JT etc...

Well, maybe it's weak but I would be afraid of getting the hand back even 3-bet in worse case scenario. I think there's reasonable chance you'r beat. I would just check-call river...


/ode

[el_grande]

Don't like the river bet. MP is passive. How often do you see a passive player without a flush turn raise when a flush card hits? I believe less than 50%.

Therefore there can be no value bet on the river unless another diamond came for you.

And I'm not crazy about raising preflop with AQo from the SB.

[bisonbison]

And I'm not crazy about raising preflop with AQo from the SB.

This preflop raise is so easy it's not funny.

[InchoateHand]

Agree on your river comment, but I think raising AQo is a simple value raise.

[el_grande]

I know it's fashionable to push that edge, I guess I'm old school when it comes to AQo. I raise with it when I can limit the field.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
And I'm not crazy about raising preflop with AQo from the SB.

This preflop raise is so easy it's not funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldnt go that far, but yeah its an easy raise /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[InchoateHand]

You don't make value raises? AQo here is no different than 4 to the flush on the flop with four opponents--I'm not raising there to limit the field either.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
I know it's fashionable to push that edge, I guess I'm old school when it comes to AQo. I raise with it when I can limit the field.

[/ QUOTE ]

pushing edges isnt "fashionable" its how winning players make their money. The only reason to pass up on a +EV play is if there is a better play to be made later. This isnt such a case, IMO

[bisonbison]

We're not having a preflop discussion in this thread. Raising here, particularly after loose players, is big-time EV.

That's it. That's all.

[MoreWineII]

By your own admission, MP1 is "passive", and yet he's raising into a paired/flushed board on the flop/turn and you bet the river with a straight...?

Care to explain? Did you really put MP1 on anything less than a FH or a flush?

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
We're not having a preflop discussion in this thread. Raising here, particularly after loose players, is big-time EV.

That's it. That's all.

[/ QUOTE ]

so it is written, so shall it be /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[el_grande]

[ QUOTE ]
We're not having a preflop discussion in this thread. Raising here, particularly after loose players, is big-time EV.

That's it. That's all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes sir!

Maybe you should update the converter to post parts of the hand not worthy of discussion in white.

[Ellis]

I think most of us agree that you should probably have check/called the river. so what happened?

[bisonbison]

Dear god. I thought that since 95% of the longterm posters in this forum would raise preflop here, maybe we could maybe not derail the conversation by discussing the merits of raising a premium hand preflop.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe you should update the converter to post parts of the hand not worthy of discussion in white.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or, we could just not discuss the parts of the hand not worthy of discussion.

[joker122]

I think the people who check/call this river are crazy. First of all, just because MP is passive doesn't mean he must have a full house - trips are much more likely.

And how in the world are you putting him on a flush? Does a passive player raise a 4 flush PAIRED flop as a semi bluff? No.

I'd bet out or CR the river.

[el_grande]

You realize that your smartass comments are causing the derail, right?

[bisonbison]

MP1 is passive, not "constitutionally unable to raise without the nuts."

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
MP1 is passive, not constitutionally unable to raise without the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, so why is everyone putting him on a flush or boat so quickly?

[J.R.]

"They" are weak-tight.

[Ellis]

I don't know if it's such a blatantly obvious bet or check/raise that you can put the tag of weak/tight on someone for check/calling here. It's not a pissing contest. I thought people came here for help...

[tipperdog]

I'm somewhat surprised no one has questioned your flop play. Here, you've got a mid-sized pot (9SBs), two overcards which may not be good (you could easily be up against a ten) and a couple of backdoor draws. With so many opponents, you're highly unlikely to win the pot here.

I do not lead at flop. I check, planning to reevaluate when the action returns to me. If it's one bet to me and I have last or nearly last action, I'll take one off and hope for the best. If it's two bets to me, I'm gone.

[joker122]

What are you talking about? Saying someone's play or thinking is weak tight is not an insult at all, it's part of analyzing a hand. It's nothing personal.

[Alobar]

Im not putting him on a flush or a boat, but you have to consider the possibility. And since its not going to get checked through, what does a bet accomplish? Are you positive enough that there is no boat or flush that you want it raised? If that is the case, then a check raise is better.

[joker122]

Yeah I agree that a bet accomplishes absolutely nothing...I wrote that in haste. It seems like a pretty solid CR opprotunity though.

[bisonbison]

Okay. This makes sense. I don't think I'd c/r here because the possibility of 3-betting.

I command this train wreck to disappear.

[DesertCat]

&lt; If it's two bets to me, I'm gone.
&gt;


You have a very large pot (at least 16.5 bb) that AT &amp; QT (or T9) could be fighting over (this is partypoker isn't it). I think you gotta call. Isn't it reasonable that 1/8 times there is no full house or flush?...

[Alobar]

Alright, I was thinking about this hand on the drive home and I think folding the turn isnt out of the question.

Youve got 9 outs to your flush, and you are getting 5.5-1 immediate on your cold call(less rake), but since UTG is so aggro I dont think you can rule out the possibility of him 3 betting, in which case your odds could drop to 13-3 or even 15-4 if it gets capped. You are a 4.1-1 dog if you give yourself all 9 outs. But I dont think you can. If you assume MP1 has at least a T or a flush, you have only 8 outs or 7 outs respectively. I think we can split the diff and discount 1.5 outs. If you hit your J you have a small chance to win here, there are 3 non flush Js and I think we can give you .5 out for them. So we have 8 outs. Which puts you at a 4.7-1 dog. Even if you hit your hand you cant be sure you've got the winner, and if you hit your flush the only raising is gunna be done by the fullhouse, so at best you can figure on winning 2 more bets. You will lose at least 1 bet the times make your hand and still lose, but could lose more since its not HU and you dont know how the action will go.

Best case scenerio you are getting 5.5-1 odds on a 4.7-1 draw. Worst case it gets 3 bet or capped on the turn you dont have the odds to draw (even with implied odds), you hit your hand, and lose to a FH or flush.

If I was better at math I'd figure out the combinations of hands 66, Tx, and made flushes, and relate them to your chances. But im not, so I cant. But I just think that best case you come out slightly ahead, and worse case you come out farther behind than you are slightlt ahead.


who wants to be the first to call me "weak tight" /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[tipperdog]

[ QUOTE ]
&lt; If it's two bets to me, I'm gone.
&gt;


You have a very large pot (at least 16.5 bb) that AT &amp; QT (or T9) could be fighting over (this is partypoker isn't it). I think you gotta call. Isn't it reasonable that 1/8 times there is no full house or flush?...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I understand your question. If BOTH a bettor and a raiser hold a ten (is that what you're suggesting?), you're likely to take a -EV multi-bet ride on ever street. The original bettor will likely 3-bet and the pot may be capped--on the flop and turn.

If only a raiser has trips, my situation remains grim. My overcard outs are shot, and my backdoor outs are questionable. If the straight draw completes the 3-flush I could lose, and if my backdoor flush draw pairs the board, I could lose also.

If a bettor bets a hand like 88 (possible) and a raiser acts with only overcards (say, KJ) and it comes back for two bets to me, then clearly, I'm making a "bad" fold and I've been outplayed (wouldn't be the first time). However, I think those situations are few and far between. It's far more likely that if the pot returns to me with a bet and raise, I'm looking at questionable backdoor draws only, and getting a price of 9ish:1, it's a clear fold.

[bisonbison]

Results, so that this thread may forever disappear into the mist:

UTG had 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, for two pair.
MP1 had T/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, for trip tens.

MHIG.

[Alobar]

dunno why you want the thread to dissapear, I thought it was one of the more interesting hands Ive seen posted here ina while.

[bisonbison]

Because of the fight contained within, which I think is dumb and embarrassing for all involved.

[nothumb]

I thought it was interesting. Glad it didn't disappear.

I'm in a weak phase right now and would probably check-call the river. Your play is better. What's your plan if you get raised or 3-bet?

NT

[bakku]

Did you consider folding on the flop?