Calling all ins with small pairs

[elcheapo]

In the late stages of a sng you inevitably will have the button or sb raising your bb. EX. (Player 1(2000), Player 2(3000) (YOU)and player 3 (3000)) Lets say you have dueces through fives and the sb (player 1) goes all in on your bb (400 chips). With 600 chips already in the pot and you're almost guaranteed to have a small edge this would seem to be the correct call. You lose and you're probably third and if you win you probably win the sng. Should I wait for a more significant edge or should I just let the odds justify my play.

[chill888]

If you call the only happy guy is the one not involved in the pot. Small pairs ARE NOT (or at least only rarely) calling all-in hands
gl

[durron597]

This is definitely a function of how often your opponent is raising big preflop. For example on the hand that Annie Duke busted Howard Lederer in ESPN's TOC, he raised allin (again) with 77 and Annie called with 66. I know, she was dominated, but she said on these boards that Howard was playing very aggressive, allin poker, and thus she rated to have the best hand. She said that if Phil Hellmuth had been the one who raised allin, she would have folded.

Thus, I'm going to go with Annie here and say the call is read dependant.

[chill888]

with the stack sizes that were provided?

fold or come play at my table

[durron597]

Let's say that they had been playing three handed for three orbits already, and each time the SB raised allin after the button folded. How long will you let him grind away at your stack when you have less than 10xBB?

[chill888]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say that they had been playing three handed for three orbits already, and each time the SB raised allin after the button folded. How long will you let him grind away at your stack when you have less than 10xBB?

[/ QUOTE ]

First it's clear that you and I usually disagree.

Second, to (partially) answer your question. If possible I'd much rather answer an aggressive player by being first to bet (with almost anything) than looking to call with mediocrity.

[durron597]

Don't get me wrong. If you always fold 22-55 here you are not too far wrong. But I would call if I had reason to believe that the SB was pushing with any two (and no better).

[Klak]

i prefer going all in with these pairs to calling allins. id rather give up my blind and wait for a spot where ill get better than at best 50/50 on my money. 8s and up id definatly call with because they might have a smaller pocket pair and id be dominating their hand. if not i get at worst 50/50(if they dont have a high PP). in summary, if youre calling someone hoping that youll get 50/50 is not a good play. calling someone knowing(as much as you can know in poker) that youll get 50/50 is a good play.

[elcheapo]

Is the overlay from the blinds not a factor. If you know with 99% certainty that you are a few percentage points favorite wouldn't the 400-600 chips etc. make the call easy. Its not like we're playing 4 handed with the blinds relatively small and player A shows me AK and I have pocket dueces and I still call because of a 1 or 2% edge. 600 chips in a 4000 chip pot is not a whole lot but it still gives a good value on my money.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't get me wrong. If you always fold 22-55 here you are not too far wrong. But I would call if I had reason to believe that the SB was pushing with any two (and no better).

[/ QUOTE ]

With 22, you're still a coin-flip favorite at best, dominated at worst. It doesn't get that much better with 33, 44, or 55.

If SB pushed and showed you 96, what would you do with 22?

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]
If SB pushed and showed you 96, what would you do with 22?

[/ QUOTE ]

It would depend on my stack size, blind level and others stack size. I know I have slightly over a 50% chance to win this hand now. If I feel I have a less then 50% chance to place ITM if I fold the I am calling. A low stack has less then a 50% chance to make it passed the bubble(skill not accounted for).

In this case I call.

As for thr Annie Duke situation. It only proves that calling with a low PP is normally a bad idea. She DID have a read and she was STILL behind. I am not saying she was correct nor incorrect to call, just saying that even with a read she was still a huge underdog.

[rachelwxm]

Another structural difference between their game and SNG is that winner takes all. In that situation, survival value disappears. Anything higher than 1:1 justifies the call for long term. It’s certainly not the case in typical SNG.

[ddubois]

People are only dealt pairs once in 17 hands, so being a 4:1 dog with a small pocket pair doesn't happen that often. I think almost as often you'll discover you are a 2:1 favorite over a A3s type of hand. It really depends how loose the raiser is. If someone is pushing, for instance, the top 25%, you're a 6:5 favorite over that range of hands. Moreover, the overlay the blinds are giving should not be ignored.

[hurlyburly]

Stacksizes are all that you should base your decision on in this situation. Since you have him covered, the 600 in the middle isn't a factor against his all-in since the value of small pp is so low at those odds. This could be a good busting opportunity but you really aren't playing for the 600 chips in the pot. He isn't much more dangerous with 2600 chips, while you would be hurt badly with only 1k. I'd toss the pair just due to the fact that the loss would cripple me.

BUT: It all depends on your styles of play, and the style of your opponent throughout the tourny. If he was always aggressive preflop and gained a massive chip lead that you and player 2 doubled up on for your 3/2 advantage or you need to do something else and end the game faster then call this immediately, but if he has stayed consistent and avoided a lot of pots he could have the goods here, so toss.

[Jason Strasser]

This type of thinking is bad.

You must examine each situation. If you simply autofold small pairs to all-ins then you are the one who loses.

Are blanket statements like:

[ QUOTE ]
Small pairs ARE NOT (or at least only rarely) calling all-in hands

[/ QUOTE ]

Ever correct for poker?

Towards the later stages of a sng and during HU play, I would say that you should rarely fold small pairs against most typical opponents.

-Jason

[dethgrind]

fold:
2400/2600(you)/3000 - .322/.331(you)/.347

call and lose:
4000/1000(you)/3000 - .387/.258(you)/.355

call and win:
0/5000(you)/3000 - .200/.425(you)/.375


if x is the chance of winning, we need to solve:

.425x + .258(1-x) = .331

x=.437


Deuces against any pair, any ace, and any two cards ten or higher (28.8%) are 44.7%.

[chill888]

[ QUOTE ]
This type of thinking is bad.

You must examine each situation. If you simply autofold small pairs to all-ins then you are the one who loses.

Are blanket statements like:

[ QUOTE ]
Small pairs ARE NOT (or at least only rarely) calling all-in hands

[/ QUOTE ]

Ever correct for poker?

Towards the later stages of a sng and during HU play, I would say that you should rarely fold small pairs against most typical opponents.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

HUH?

In the situation outlined by the author a call would be bad. Most times a CALL with small pair is dangerous or just plain awful. As I stated in my earlier post, it of course depends on the situation.

But Calling/ raising all-in with small pairs is generally losing play. No Doubt. Absolutley none. ^ Best case it is a coin toss and often a huge dog.

To be fair you and i disagree a lot, I usually expect to see PUSH in your posts so i value your restraint here.

gl

[Jason Strasser]

As you can see, I was not referring to this exact situation, where I agree a fold is going to be correct most of the time. But instead I was referring to your blanket statement, which is just flat out wrong. When you have stacks of 4-8BBs, as is often the case late in sngs, very rarely should you pass on a spot where you are getting muchg better than 2:1 with a small pair.

For example, you are on the bb (blinds 200/400) with 44. Button goes all in for 1k. Here you are getting 600:1600.

That situation comes up a lot, which is why your statement to 'never (rarely) call with small pairs' is incorrect.

In my opinion...
-Jason

[LinusKS]

I think what this says, if I'm reading it correctly, is that you don't need to be a favorite here to call, because when you win you pick up more EV than what you give up when you lose.

You're saying it's probably correct to call here, right?

[ QUOTE ]
fold:
2400/2600(you)/3000 - .322/.331(you)/.347

call and lose:
4000/1000(you)/3000 - .387/.258(you)/.355

call and win:
0/5000(you)/3000 - .200/.425(you)/.375


if x is the chance of winning, we need to solve:

.425x + .258(1-x) = .331

x=.437


Deuces against any pair, any ace, and any two cards ten or higher (28.8%) are 44.7%.

[/ QUOTE ]

[dethgrind]

[ QUOTE ]
You're saying it's probably correct to call here, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying it, ICM is saying it. But yeah, since ICM says you only need to win 43.7% or better to call, calling is correct in the majority of situations where the raise is being made with a reasonable range of hands.

My math ignored the small chance of a tie, but this is so rough anyway it doesn't matter.